Punt Return Penalty

[MikeStrybel]

Last week, our Featherweight (U10, below 100#) team was set to receive a punt. We have had trouble blocking on these, so we put two receivers back to receive and brought another two about fifteen yards behind the LOS. At this level, we are not allowed to rush the punter. The other team kicked it and as soon as one of our boys touched the ball, a ref blew the whistle and tossed his flag. He announced an illegal formation penalty and marked it 10 yards from the spot of the touch.

Our league is the TCYFL and the officiating is usually excellent. The crews (3 man) typically work hard and communicate well. On this occasion, they chose not to explain and told us they would address it after the game. We won and I always make it a point to thank the crew. When I did, I asked if they could clarify the call. I was told that we can only have two receivers back. We follow Fed rules with some exceptions for safety and participation. Is their ruling correct? Thank you in advance for the help.

[Welpe]

Mike, there is no Fed prohibition on the receiving team's formation at all. Unfortunately I think you got caught up by one of those local rules.

[mbyron]

NFHS rules impose no restrictions on where B/R players line up other than being on their side of the ball. Either there's a league rule or the officials made stuff up.

[bcl1127]

I have officiated in this league in the past, you need to have 8 on the line and only 3 back for punts at your level. Here is a copy from the rule book (see Bold section):

Section 13. Featherweight Level Rules
A. Punting
A team must inform its opponent and the officials of their intention to punt.
Contact may not occur on a punt until after the ball has been punted. This is a free kick
with no rush allowed. The punter must kick the ball from a minimum of five (5) yards
behind the line of scrimmage. The punting team must line up in a punt formation and snap
the ball from the center position. There will be no live action until the ball is kicked.
However, if the snap is errant, the ball must be kicked from a minimum of five (5) yards
behind the line of scrimmage. The punter may not walk up and take the ball directly from
the center and walk back with it. A long snap must be attempted on every punt. The
receiving team must line up with eight (8) players on the line of scrimmage and three (3)
players in the secondary.

[HLin NC]

Could I make a suggestion? For potential local rule variations, why not contact your local supervisor of officials instead of throwing your organization's name out for scrutiny on a national message board. The vast majority of people here probably have no idea what the TCYFL is nor what local variations they use no more than I expect them to know about the WNCYL and its differences.

Better yet, obtain a copy of those local rules and review them at your coaches meeting in pre-season.

Game day is a bad day to be learning something.

[bcl1127]

Originally Posted by HLin NC

Better yet, obtain a copy of those local rules and review them at your coaches meeting in pre-season.

Just an FYI, I downloaded the rulebook from the league's website and pasted the rule. It was fairly easy to find. I have worked in that league in previous years, so I was familiar with the rules, but your point is very well taken.

[InsideTheStripe]

Originally Posted by MikeStrybel

Last week, our Featherweight (U10, below 100#) team was set to receive a punt. We have had trouble blocking on these, so we put two receivers back to receive and brought another two about fifteen yards behind the LOS. At this level, we are not allowed to rush the punter. The other team kicked it and as soon as one of our boys touched the ball, a ref blew the whistle and tossed his flag. He announced an illegal formation penalty and marked it 10 yards from the spot of the touch.

As has been pointed out, you must have 8 on the line when receiving punts at this level in the TCYFL. Unfortunately, the rules don't indicate what the penalty should be for such an infraction, but I doubt I'd have gone with 10 yards from where the ball was received. It has to be a foul at the snap, I'd probably go with 5 yards but it wouldn't be PSK. If the offense accepted the penalty, it would be 5 yards replay 4th down (or first down if the LTG was reached).

I've never considered how I would penalize this, because at this level and below I won't blow the ball ready until both teams are lined up legally.

[bcl1127]

Originally Posted by InsideTheStripe

I've never considered how I would penalize this, because at this level and below I won't blow the ball ready until both teams are lined up legally.

Ditto, I would always be telling everyone 8 on the line, three back before the play...let them get the kiddos lined up

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by HLin NC

The vast majority of people here probably have no idea what the TCYFL is

Sure we do - I used to work there. It's "The Colony Youth Football League" and it's based in northwest Dallas, Texas. Surely there's only one of this acronym out there.

(That said, +1 to HLin NC - questions about local rules should go to those localities. If you're going to blast your local league's insane rules (something we all do from time to time, self included), don't mention the org.)

[Robert Goodman]

Heh...in our 11.5Us game to defend a punt, the officials made us line up with 4 on the DL instead of the 3 I'd coached them to...and which we'd used in the previous 2 games with no problem!

To tell the truth, I'm really never sure which rules are official as administered in our organiz'n, and which ones are just administered that way because of officials' misunderstanding. This season they seem to be putting emphasis on illegal formation, which they whistle as the ball is snapped. That may be our organiz'n rule, or maybe the officials just misinterpret Fed rules that way; I suspect the former, to give the coaches and kids a break, because it's coming up a lot and it'd be pretty awful to allow play to proceed and team B decline the penalty.

If the TCYFL is who I think they are, they have a lot of idiosyncratic rules.

[MikeStrybel]

Originally Posted by HLin NC

Could I make a suggestion? For potential local rule variations, why not contact your local supervisor of officials instead of throwing your organization's name out for scrutiny on a national message board. The vast majority of people here probably have no idea what the TCYFL is nor what local variations they use no more than I expect them to know about the WNCYL and its differences.

Better yet, obtain a copy of those local rules and review them at your coaches meeting in pre-season.

Game day is a bad day to be learning something.

There is no 'local supervisor of officials' available to us. Multiple assignors fill these games and I know most. I spoke directly with the league director about rules being misapplied this season and he credited it to official's inexperience and inconsistency between assignors. This was an away game for us and the crew was all non-varsity guys. I suspect that a lack knowledge of appropriate penalty was the culprit. As a staff, we don't argue calls in this league. As a fellow official, I respect that they may make mistakes. I simply sought clarification from the board.

I saw the rule on our house site but as another mentioned, no penalty was mentioned. Further, scrutiny is applicable - it is not a blemish on the league, as I praised the officials here and have prior on this site. I find the vast majority of them to be excellent and for another to insinuate that I blasted them or disparaged the league is wholly inaccurate and a bit thin skinned. For the record, I just became an IHSA football official this year as a way to familiarize myself with NFHS rules. I could not find relevant rules within their books so I asked here. As was evidenced by other posts, the officials likely erred in assessing penalty. Hopefully they will now learn something. I did and appreciate the help from those of you who offered it.

[MikeStrybel]

Originally Posted by InsideTheStripe

As has been pointed out, you must have 8 on the line when receiving punts at this level in the TCYFL. Unfortunately, the rules don't indicate what the penalty should be for such an infraction, but I doubt I'd have gone with 10 yards from where the ball was received. It has to be a foul at the snap, I'd probably go with 5 yards but it wouldn't be PSK. If the offense accepted the penalty, it would be 5 yards replay 4th down (or first down if the LTG was reached).

I've never considered how I would penalize this, because at this level and below I won't blow the ball ready until both teams are lined up legally.

Most of the guys we see do this. At the beginning of the game, the crew informed us that as this was the last regular season game, they would be calling things tight. As you know, the typical crew at this level will remind receivers that they are lined up incorrectly, prevent the center from being touched on punts/PATs, explain penalties, etc. You guys do a great job of this and the game still moves along. I appreciae the effort and clarification of this rule. Our playoffs begin this weekend so the help is timely.

[JRutledge]

This is the reason I cannot stand these league rules. They are not always made clear to the officials and they have no real rules basis. Then the people that write them usually do not think of all the applications like what is the penalty if this is illegal? This is a recipe for disaster.

Peace

[ajmc]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

This is the reason I cannot stand these league rules. They are not always made clear to the officials and they have no real rules basis. Then the people that write them usually do not think of all the applications like what is the penalty if this is illegal? This is a recipe for disaster. Peace

I presume the notation U10 means "Under age 10", and at this level "local rules" likely have either some instructional or safety logic behind them. It sounds like you followed an appropriate procedure in asking for clarification, as did the officials in giving you an answer, as well as offering to explain further later. Ofter sharing different opinions about rule details, on the field during a game between adults, serves mainly to only bore and distract young players and detract from the game.

The objective, obviously, is to understand what is correct so mistakes are not repeated, and often officials don't have the opportunity to delve into such rules as deeply as they normally would to understand the intent, the reason, the logic, etc of NFHS rules. Any discussions related to the value or rationality of a "local" rule, might best be directed at the organization producing the rules, who would hopefully be able to explain their intent and purpose.

[MikeStrybel]

Well stated, thank you. It is refreshing to see officials treat each other with dignity, especially when one is trying to seek guidance.

I sent an email regarding this matter, to the league and await their reply. While at practice today, a coach from another level (he coached Featherweight a few years ago) explained what he knew to be the rule change. Apparently, because there is no rush, the league felt it was an unfair advantage to allow the receiving team to drop back enough players to form a wall/wedge. Since instruction and safety are the keys to this level, I buy his thinking. Heck, that was why I was dropping back my extra back in the first place - our blocking needs work. If I hear differently from the league I will share their rationale with the board. Our TCYFL encourages feedback each Spring so they can make the rules more conducive to youth play in our area. I'm sure some of you will have insight.