Backward Pass...or not.

[parepat]

2nd and 10 at A's 20. QB A1 takes snap and is in the process of being tackled by B 90 who has him by the shirt approximately 5 yards behind the LOS. A-1 attempts to dump the ball off to A 2 in near the line of scrimmage. At the same time B-90 swings A 1 around and the pass goes clearly backward where B-10 jumps on it at the A 10. NFHS...NCAA?

[CT1]

NFHS: This is a backwards pass, since its initial direction was not toward the opponent's end line. B's ball, 1st & (ten or goal) at the A-10.

[mbyron]

NFHS: sounds like a backward pass. It was thrown with its initial direction parallel to or toward the runner's end line.

1/10 for B at the +10YL.

[parepat]

I can swear that I recently read (Reddings I think) that said in this situation blow dead as incomplete pass. The point is that the backwards throw was caused by the contact from B. Does this sound familiar. Based on my recent posts, I probably don't know what I'm talking about.

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by parepat

I can swear that I recently read (Reddings I think) that said in this situation blow dead as incomplete pass. The point is that the backwards throw was caused by the contact from B. Does this sound familiar. Based on my recent posts, I probably don't know what I'm talking about.

For NFHS? I don't see anything that references where the passer meant to throw it.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by Redding

It is also a forward pass if a defensive player contacts the ball or the passer after forward movement of the passer's arm has begun, regardless of which direction the ball actually goes (2-31-2 Nt). Once the passer starts his arm forward, it is a forward pass regardless of which direction the ball leaves his hand or where the ball lands. The passer receives the benefit of the doubt as to whether the ball is thrown or fumbled. When in question, rule it a forward pass, and not a fumble.

In other words, in the OP was the arm coming forward when B-90 swung him around?

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by RichMSN

[Quote = Redding]It is also a forward pass if a defensive player contacts the ball or the passer after forward movement of the passer's arm has begun, regardless of which direction the ball actually goes (2-31-2 Nt). Once the passer starts his arm forward, it is a forward pass regardless of which direction the ball leaves his hand or where the ball lands. The passer receives the benefit of the doubt as to whether the ball is thrown or fumbled. When in question, rule it a forward pass, and not a fumble.

Wow. That directly contradicts the rule, which specifically bases the direction of the pass on the direction of the thrown ball, not on the direction the arm was moving when the throw started.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by mbyron

Wow. That directly contradicts the rule, which specifically bases the direction of the pass on the direction of the thrown ball, not on the direction the arm was moving when the throw started.

Actually, 2-31-2 NOTE is pretty much the Redding passage, just shorter:

Originally Posted by NFHS Rule 2-31-2 NOTE

Prior to releasing the ball on a pass, if the potential passer is contacted, and the ball is released, it is a forward pass if his arm was moving forward on contact.

[CT1]

I like Redding's philosophy from a practical standpoint. It's probably the more easily acceptible call.

On a test, I'd answer "backwards", though.

[Welpe]

NCAA: If the QB's arm was going forward when he was contacted, we should have an incomplete pass. I'll see if I can dig the rule reference out.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by CT1

I like Redding's philosophy from a practical standpoint. It's probably the more easily acceptible call.

On a test, I'd answer "backwards", though.

I see the subtle difference between the Redding passage and the written rule -- I wonder, however, if the rules makers really intended what Redding wrote. If a passer is wrapped up and brings his arm forward and is turned around and the ball comes out backwards, I'm ruling that an incomplete pass all day long.

[MD Longhorn]

If you consider that the pass begins at the instant his hand begins moving forward, and not the instant his hand releases the ball, the Reddings interp and the rule match.

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by RichMSN

Actually, 2-31-2 NOTE is pretty much the Redding passage, just shorter:

Wow. That directly contradicts the rule, which specifically bases the direction of the pass on the direction of the thrown ball, not on the direction the arm was moving when the throw started.

[Reffing Rev.]

Can you really say it contradicts the rule when the rules say both. How hard is this...

No contact: direction of pass determined by initial direction
Contact: direction of pass determined by movement of the arm at contact.

[JasonTX]

In NCAA, as others have stated, if the arm starts forward and the player is hit and the pass goes backwards, it IS and incomplete pass.