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-   -   Backward Pass...or not. (https://forum.officiating.com/football/81006-backward-pass-not.html)

parepat Fri Sep 23, 2011 01:53pm
Backward Pass...or not.
 
2nd and 10 at A's 20. QB A1 takes snap and is in the process of being tackled by B 90 who has him by the shirt approximately 5 yards behind the LOS. A-1 attempts to dump the ball off to A 2 in near the line of scrimmage. At the same time B-90 swings A 1 around and the pass goes clearly backward where B-10 jumps on it at the A 10. NFHS...NCAA?

CT1 Fri Sep 23, 2011 01:59pm
NFHS: This is a backwards pass, since its initial direction was not toward the opponent's end line. B's ball, 1st & (ten or goal) at the A-10.

mbyron Fri Sep 23, 2011 01:59pm
NFHS: sounds like a backward pass. It was thrown with its initial direction parallel to or toward the runner's end line.

1/10 for B at the +10YL.

parepat Fri Sep 23, 2011 02:11pm
I can swear that I recently read (Reddings I think) that said in this situation blow dead as incomplete pass. The point is that the backwards throw was caused by the contact from B. Does this sound familiar. Based on my recent posts, I probably don't know what I'm talking about.

mbyron Fri Sep 23, 2011 02:12pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by parepat (Post 789359)
I can swear that I recently read (Reddings I think) that said in this situation blow dead as incomplete pass. The point is that the backwards throw was caused by the contact from B. Does this sound familiar. Based on my recent posts, I probably don't know what I'm talking about.
For NFHS? I don't see anything that references where the passer meant to throw it. :cool:

Rich Fri Sep 23, 2011 02:17pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Redding
It is also a forward pass if a defensive player contacts the ball or the passer after forward movement of the passer's arm has begun, regardless of which direction the ball actually goes (2-31-2 Nt). Once the passer starts his arm forward, it is a forward pass regardless of which direction the ball leaves his hand or where the ball lands. The passer receives the benefit of the doubt as to whether the ball is thrown or fumbled. When in question, rule it a forward pass, and not a fumble.
In other words, in the OP was the arm coming forward when B-90 swung him around?

mbyron Fri Sep 23, 2011 02:20pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by RichMSN
[Quote = Redding]It is also a forward pass if a defensive player contacts the ball or the passer after forward movement of the passer's arm has begun, regardless of which direction the ball actually goes (2-31-2 Nt). Once the passer starts his arm forward, it is a forward pass regardless of which direction the ball leaves his hand or where the ball lands. The passer receives the benefit of the doubt as to whether the ball is thrown or fumbled. When in question, rule it a forward pass, and not a fumble.
Wow. That directly contradicts the rule, which specifically bases the direction of the pass on the direction of the thrown ball, not on the direction the arm was moving when the throw started.

Rich Fri Sep 23, 2011 02:22pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by mbyron (Post 789373)
Wow. That directly contradicts the rule, which specifically bases the direction of the pass on the direction of the thrown ball, not on the direction the arm was moving when the throw started.
Actually, 2-31-2 NOTE is pretty much the Redding passage, just shorter:

Quote:
Originally Posted by NFHS Rule 2-31-2 NOTE
Prior to releasing the ball on a pass, if the potential passer is contacted, and the ball is released, it is a forward pass if his arm was moving forward on contact.

CT1 Fri Sep 23, 2011 02:23pm
I like Redding's philosophy from a practical standpoint. It's probably the more easily acceptible call.

On a test, I'd answer "backwards", though.

Welpe Fri Sep 23, 2011 02:26pm
NCAA: If the QB's arm was going forward when he was contacted, we should have an incomplete pass. I'll see if I can dig the rule reference out.

Rich Fri Sep 23, 2011 02:36pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by CT1 (Post 789375)
I like Redding's philosophy from a practical standpoint. It's probably the more easily acceptible call.

On a test, I'd answer "backwards", though.
I see the subtle difference between the Redding passage and the written rule -- I wonder, however, if the rules makers really intended what Redding wrote. If a passer is wrapped up and brings his arm forward and is turned around and the ball comes out backwards, I'm ruling that an incomplete pass all day long.

MD Longhorn Fri Sep 23, 2011 02:45pm
If you consider that the pass begins at the instant his hand begins moving forward, and not the instant his hand releases the ball, the Reddings interp and the rule match.

mbyron Sat Sep 24, 2011 09:39am
Quote:
Originally Posted by RichMSN (Post 789374)
Actually, 2-31-2 NOTE is pretty much the Redding passage, just shorter:
Wow. That directly contradicts the rule, which specifically bases the direction of the pass on the direction of the thrown ball, not on the direction the arm was moving when the throw started.
;)

Reffing Rev. Sat Sep 24, 2011 09:55am
Can you really say it contradicts the rule when the rules say both. How hard is this...

No contact: direction of pass determined by initial direction
Contact: direction of pass determined by movement of the arm at contact.

JasonTX Sat Sep 24, 2011 02:18pm
In NCAA, as others have stated, if the arm starts forward and the player is hit and the pass goes backwards, it IS and incomplete pass.


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