Backward Pass...or not.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by Redding

It is also a forward pass if a defensive player contacts the ball or the passer after forward movement of the passer's arm has begun, regardless of which direction the ball actually goes (2-31-2 Nt). Once the passer starts his arm forward, it is a forward pass regardless of which direction the ball leaves his hand or where the ball lands. The passer receives the benefit of the doubt as to whether the ball is thrown or fumbled. When in question, rule it a forward pass, and not a fumble.

In other words, in the OP was the arm coming forward when B-90 swung him around?

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by RichMSN

[Quote = Redding]It is also a forward pass if a defensive player contacts the ball or the passer after forward movement of the passer's arm has begun, regardless of which direction the ball actually goes (2-31-2 Nt). Once the passer starts his arm forward, it is a forward pass regardless of which direction the ball leaves his hand or where the ball lands. The passer receives the benefit of the doubt as to whether the ball is thrown or fumbled. When in question, rule it a forward pass, and not a fumble.

Wow. That directly contradicts the rule, which specifically bases the direction of the pass on the direction of the thrown ball, not on the direction the arm was moving when the throw started.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by mbyron

Wow. That directly contradicts the rule, which specifically bases the direction of the pass on the direction of the thrown ball, not on the direction the arm was moving when the throw started.

Actually, 2-31-2 NOTE is pretty much the Redding passage, just shorter:

Originally Posted by NFHS Rule 2-31-2 NOTE

Prior to releasing the ball on a pass, if the potential passer is contacted, and the ball is released, it is a forward pass if his arm was moving forward on contact.

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by RichMSN

Actually, 2-31-2 NOTE is pretty much the Redding passage, just shorter:

Wow. That directly contradicts the rule, which specifically bases the direction of the pass on the direction of the thrown ball, not on the direction the arm was moving when the throw started.

[Reffing Rev.]

Can you really say it contradicts the rule when the rules say both. How hard is this...

No contact: direction of pass determined by initial direction
Contact: direction of pass determined by movement of the arm at contact.

[JasonTX]

In NCAA, as others have stated, if the arm starts forward and the player is hit and the pass goes backwards, it IS and incomplete pass.

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by Reffing Rev.

Can you really say it contradicts the rule when the rules say both. How hard is this...

No contact: direction of pass determined by initial direction
Contact: direction of pass determined by movement of the arm at contact.

Good point. The appearance of a contradiction might be removed by distinguishing different cases or marking exceptions.

Still, you could avoid even the appearance of contradiction by simply defining the direction of the pass as the direction the arm starts to move. That's in fact what's doing all the work in the rule as it is.

[CT1]

I like Redding's philosophy from a practical standpoint. It's probably the more easily acceptible call.

On a test, I'd answer "backwards", though.

[Welpe]

NCAA: If the QB's arm was going forward when he was contacted, we should have an incomplete pass. I'll see if I can dig the rule reference out.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by CT1

I like Redding's philosophy from a practical standpoint. It's probably the more easily acceptible call.

On a test, I'd answer "backwards", though.

I see the subtle difference between the Redding passage and the written rule -- I wonder, however, if the rules makers really intended what Redding wrote. If a passer is wrapped up and brings his arm forward and is turned around and the ball comes out backwards, I'm ruling that an incomplete pass all day long.

[MD Longhorn]

If you consider that the pass begins at the instant his hand begins moving forward, and not the instant his hand releases the ball, the Reddings interp and the rule match.