what do you have???

[MD Longhorn]

Honestly, having trouble seeing this as illegal in any ruleset. At worst, it's a planned loose ball. I doubt that a single one of you would rule an illegal snap if a center fouled up a shotgun snap to the degree that it never left the ground ... especially if B recovered it. Nothing in the definition of pass requires the ball begin off the ground or leave the ground at any point.

[bigjohn]

SECTION 31 PASSING
ART. 1 . . . Passing the ball is throwing a ball that is in player possession. In a
pass, the ball travels in flight.

[parepat]

Sounds to me that this was simply a version of the single wing offense that has been in use since the 40's.

[MD Longhorn]

Hmmm... food for thought, but the lack of the word MUST leads me to still see nothing untoward here.

Think of it this way. Ball in player possession, player going down braces himself with the ball, sees a back behind him and tries to shuffle him the ball, but the ball ends up rolling on the ground...

Are you stopping the play? Calling that a bat? What? that can't be anything but a (bad) backward pass...

And no one commented on stopping the play I mentioned should B recover or sack the QB.

[Robert Goodman]

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

Hmmm... food for thought, but the lack of the word MUST leads me to still see nothing untoward here.

The lack of the word "must" where?

Are you denying that a scrimmage down must start with a snap? Do you deny that the rules specify either what a snap is, or what must be done to snap the ball?

Think of it this way. Ball in player possession, player going down braces himself with the ball, sees a back behind him and tries to shuffle him the ball, but the ball ends up rolling on the ground...

Are you stopping the play? Calling that a bat? What? that can't be anything but a (bad) backward pass...

It makes a difference whether the ball is on the ground all the way from the time it leaves the player's possession, or travels thru the air any distance on leaving the player's hand(s). In the latter instance, it's a backwards pass. In the former, under the American codes, it's not a pass at all, and since they define "fumble" by exclusion, you'll see that's what it is, which means that NCAA's & NFL's rules on advancing a teammate's fumble come into play in some situations.

In Canadian football AFAIK sliding, rolling, or leaving the ball on the ground is a pass if it's intentional.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by Robert Goodman

The lack of the word "must" where?

"ART. 1 . . . Passing the ball is throwing a ball that is in player possession. In a
pass, the ball travels in flight. "

Are you denying that a scrimmage down must start with a snap? Do you deny that the rules specify either what a snap is, or what must be done to snap the ball?

Pffft... um. NO! Of course not.

It makes a difference whether the ball is on the ground all the way from the time it leaves the player's possession, or travels thru the air any distance on leaving the player's hand(s). In the latter instance, it's a backwards pass. In the former, under the American codes, it's not a pass at all, and since they define "fumble" by exclusion, you'll see that's what it is, which means that NCAA's & NFL's rules on advancing a teammate's fumble come into play in some situations.

In Canadian football AFAIK sliding, rolling, or leaving the ball on the ground is a pass if it's intentional.

Sure. What's your point. Why is there any motivation by anyone here to call the OP an illegal snap? The rules basis for that is infinitely small, and doesn't seem (to me) to be the motivation of the rules writers. It seems we're trying very hard to justify calling something illegal in a case where there's no reason for us to have the desire to call it illegal. Or, to the adv/disadv people, what advantage is gained by the offense snapping the ball in the way described in the OP as opposed to lifting the ball 1 millimeter off the ground while making exactly the same snap. I don't get the motivation here.

[Robert Goodman]

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

"ART. 1 . . . Passing the ball is throwing a ball that is in player possession. In a
pass, the ball travels in flight. "

That's a definition. Statements of fact, not commands. No "must" needed there. If something meets those conditions, it's a pass, otherwise not.

Sure. What's your point. Why is there any motivation by anyone here to call the OP an illegal snap?

It's come up in actual cases, which is why coaches are discussing it.

The rules basis for that is infinitely small, and doesn't seem (to me) to be the motivation of the rules writers.

Hard for me to infer that.

Different codes have defined "pass" differently. In NFL & Canadian football, handing the ball is a type of pass, in NCAA & Fed not. "Fumble" could have been defined in its intuitive way, i.e. involuntary loss of possession, but that's not what the rules makers have done. I'm not sure why they wrote them in such a way that a rolling or sliding pass is not a "pass", nor is a leave pass, where the ball is left on the ground. The requirements for the snap went thru some alterations, with interesting differences between American & Canadian development.

I'd have to research the development of the definition of "pass" to see if it came after its inclusion in the snap requirements, as I suspect it did. If that's true, then banning the roll-all-the-way snap was a side effect of adopting that definition of pass. Similarly, the NCAA & NFL restrictions on advancing a fumble apply to certain cases that would not be so if you could roll or slide a backwards pass, or just let go of the ball wihtout a throwing motion and have it fall backward. Did they really want it to be illegal for a team to advance the ball by a desperation leave-the-ball-behind-you pass? Maybe yes, maybe no.

[Canned Heat]

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

Honestly, having trouble seeing this as illegal in any ruleset. At worst, it's a planned loose ball. I doubt that a single one of you would rule an illegal snap if a center fouled up a shotgun snap to the degree that it never left the ground ... especially if B recovered it. Nothing in the definition of pass requires the ball begin off the ground or leave the ground at any point.

Fully agree.

ART. 1 . . . A snap is the legal act of passing or handing the ball backward from its position on the ground. (THAT REQUIREMENT HAS BEEN MET)
ART. 2 . . . The snap begins when the snapper first moves the ball legally other than in adjustment. In a snap, the movement must be a quick and continuous backward motion of the ball during which the ball immediately leaves the hand(s) of the snapper and touches a back or the ground before touching any A lineman. (THIS REQUIREMENT HAS BEEN MET)....
ART. 3 . . . The snap ends when the ball touches the ground or any player.... (THIS REQUIREMENT HAS BEEN MET...and the ball is now a loose ball the second it leaves the snapper's hand(s)

[HLin NC]

The question begs, what age group are we talking about here?

If its youth ball, I'd say there would be more latitude to let this go if it was on shaky legal ground. Unless of course some Mad Genius youth coach () came up with is as an acutal strategy.

Either is in the realm of possibility.

[cmathews]

MB yes I would and have shut the play down if the snapper makes such a bad snap that it rolls on the ground.

This was a JV game.

We missed one, and penalized one, and had a couple other "questionable" snaps.

The fact that it must leave his hand/s before touching the ground is where we hung our hat. It did NOT leave his hand/s prior to touching the ground. It never was airborne so it wasn't passing the ball, it wasn't handed to anyone so it wasn't handing it. There fore it wasn't a legal snap.

MB in your situation where the ball carrier trys to shuffle the ball and loses it, well...I have a fumble. He meant to pass it but didn't get it done and lost possession, so I have a fumble in your situation.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by cmathews

The fact that it must leave his hand/s before touching the ground is where we hung our hat. It did NOT leave his hand/s prior to touching the ground.

ball immediately leaves the hand(s) of the snapper and touches a back or the ground

And. Not prior to. Just AND.

[cmathews]

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

And. Not prior to. Just AND.

Article 1 says it is an act of passing or handing.....he certainly doesn't hand it...so did he pass it? passing requires flight, it didn't ever leave the ground so it wasn't a pass. If it isn't passing or handing it isn't a legal snap.

[bigjohn]

I agree if the snapper just spins the ball and rolls it, it is illegal snap, but he lofts it just a bit and rotates his wrist to make the ball land and roll it is legal.

[Robert Goodman]

Originally Posted by HLin NC

The question begs, what age group are we talking about here?

If its youth ball, I'd say there would be more latitude to let this go if it was on shaky legal ground. Unless of course some Mad Genius youth coach () came up with is as an acutal strategy.

This has been a topic of serious discussion lately in youth coaching circles, yes.

In Wyatt's wildcat formation (a double wing version of the double/dual T, i.e. 2 QBs close to the snapper) a rolling snap was considered acceptable coaching-wise, although it wasn't coached deliberately.

In the discussion I mentioned above, Coach Doug (who also officiates sometimes) said that he'd only flag it if if appeared to intentionally be rolled all the way. If it got off the ground at all, it's legal no matter how far it subsequently rolled, and even if it didn't get off the ground, if it looked like a slip in an attempt to make a legal snap, he'd let it go.