Ki-o-Rahi (Maori football)

[James Neil]

Hey AB , you forgot one

America : PSK

LOL

[Taha Maori]

This is a great discussion AB because all the ingredients for you to critically assess how American football came to evolve are right before your eyes!

As stated earlier the missionaries wanted Maori to pray day and night and to stop playing their ‘heathen’ games. However the early (pre-1830’s) British “genteel” traders and entrepreneurs saw value in the open, free flowing passing and running-with-the-ball-in-hand style of football (called Ki-o-Rahi) which the Maori played. They took these concepts back to their public schools and transformed their mob game into a running game! Instead of attributing this style of football to the “heathen” Maori they did this by inventing the fiction of William Ellis picking the ball up and running with it – and you will note AB that this fiction of William Web Ellis has at last been uncovered and those serious writers of rugby history (who aren't burdened with racial resistance)are attributing the concept of running rugby to the Maori game.That is simply why Maori and the Polynesians (South Pacific Islanders) are the best players in the world - it is traditional and comes 'naturally'.

So, and this should be easy now AB, American football evolved from which ‘insignificant’ game?

[ABoselli]

So, and this should be easy now AB, American football evolved from which ‘insignificant’ game?

Basketball.

[Sleeper]

The best players of what in the world. Didn't know that the Maori made up the majority of professional athletes in the world. Which sport do they dominate, other that the native version of football? I am not saying there aren't good Maori athletes, but there is a difference between opinion and documented fact. Does a Maori hold the fastest 40 time? Is a Maori the fastest or strongest person in the world? How many Maori start in professional football, basketball, baseball, soccer? Help me out here. I will gladly give you the title if you can provide evidence.

However, last time I checked, the largest contributor to at least American football is the great state of Texas. The largest contributor to professional baseball is Central America. I don't know about soccer, but I am guessing Central America or Europe. The fastest man in an American. The strongest man is from Europe (depending on how recent the last "World's Strongest Man" competition I watched was). The world's best golfer is American, as were the last several legends in the game. Australia's best golfer is better known for his chokes than his wins. The world's best basketball player lives in San Antonio. The holder of the most home runs in a season is American, so is the career homerun leader.

Did I miss a major sport? Last time I checked, US Pro teams weren't flying to NZ to scout for the upcoming season.

Like I said, national pride is a wonderful thing, but it is opinion until you have facts to back it up.

[James Neil]

Originally posted by Taha Maori
This is a great discussion AB because all the ingredients for you to critically assess how American football came to evolve are right before your eyes!

American football evolved from which ‘insignificant’ game?

Ah-Ha Taha, I get it now! You want credit for inventing American football. Well OK, let me be the first to say thanks. I’ll also be the first to apologize for the fact that we have to police the game with officials. I’m sure that if we’d had kept to the pure Maori version of the game this wouldn’t be necessary. And guess what Taha? That’s what we’re doing here at this board. We’re American Football Officials trying to learn the difference between NCAA-PSK and National Federation-PSK. May I suggest that you join us in this honorable avocation and become an American Football Official? I figure since you guys invented the game, you will be able to clear up any confusion that anyone might have regarding any of the rules pursuant to the world's greatest game.

[Taha Maori]

No Sleeper not one of those 'World Series' professional leagues where only one country fields the teams (ie American football)I'm talking about rugby where there is a legitimate World Cup involving dozens of different countries, you know the ones you and ABoselli regard as insignificant eg. 'the rest of the world'. Sleeper plug these names into your finder - try... Brooke, Jones, Bunce, Reihana, Rush, Lomu, Stanley, Tefu,....for starters

And nice evasion on the topic of how sports reflect the society they're in fellas - stacking, segregation etc (very quiet)no doubt as Bradley did with AB's Patton example many things can be ignored if you have a superiority complex!

[AndrewMcCarthy]

Originally posted by Taha Maori
plug these names into your finder

I put in "Stanley" and got the NHL playoffs. I don't even think that's reached the southern hemisphere yet!

[ABoselli]

I'm talking about rugby where there is a legitimate World Cup involving dozens of different countries, you know the ones you and ABoselli regard as insignificant

I thought the real World Cup was for "Futbol", governed by FIFA, who, at last check, employed referees to police the games. It seems that sometimes these honorable men (and women) will act like they've been shot to draw a penalty, then spring to their feet after their ruse has been successfully perpetrated.

I guess the Rugby World Cup is a big deal in New Zealand, but I think any self respecting German, Brazilian, Italian or Brit will answer futbol (soccer) when asked about the most popular international game around.

As far as your Patton innuendo, let me guess - another German site? As far as discrimination in America - umm, gee, you just finding out about that? Check out the front page of any newspaper in America on any given day, and you'll find something about affirmative action, race relations, racial profiling etc etc. That's the great thing about an open society - our dirty laundry is strung up for everyone to come and inspect. Somehow, though, the Secretary of State is black, so is the national security advisor to the president, so is the most popular pitchman for Buick and Nike, as well as the general manager of many NBA teams. Who did America send to the Berlin Olympics in '36 who swept every event he entered with the purveyor of the 'master race' theory in attendance?

As far as the socio-economic underpinnings for the modern game of American football, I think you can assign it directly to the superior warrior mentality of the average American. The entire game is built upon the capture and holding of territory through a strategic balance of running and passing the ball, by use of different types of players for different purposes (infantry, air force, tanks, cavalry etc), with the winner decided by not only the best strategy, but individual athletic prowess, intelligence and dumb luck. Just as you probably don't care that the rest of the world hasn't embraced you whatever it is game, neither do we.

For your future reference, here's a list of sports that Americans don't like en masse -

Rugby, soccer, Grand Prix racing, bicycle racing, track and field, curling, every winter olympic sport except hockey and figure skating, swimming, tennis, lacrosse and cricket. There may be a few pockets of support here and there, but by and large, they don't capture tha average Americans imagination.

Here's the opening for you to state that it's because we're all racists, or war criminals.

[ABoselli]

I finally found something about this alleged court martial coverup - man, you had to dig for this one. It's a review of a very unflattering biography of Patton.

Hirshson’s most damning indictment of Patton is the author’s interpretation of the effect of Patton’s bellicose speeches on his troops in Sicily. Patton’s exhortation to kill as many enemies as possible, says Hirshson, produced a debilitating effect on his Seventh Army and invited five atrocities, including a massacre of 40 prisoners at Biscari airfield and the murder of Italian civilians at a Canicatti soap factory. Patton acknowledged that a massacre occurred and directed Bradley to tell the officer involved to certify that the dead men were snipers.

To Patton, such incidents were regrettable, but in war atrocities take place and "they are dead, so nothing can be done about it." Though the officer who ordered the killings cited Patton’s order to send as many of the enemy to the infernal regions as possible as a defense in his subsequent court-martial, Hirshson’s evidence that the atrocities were directly attributable to Patton’s warlike addresses is dubious. One can not help but be reminded of Adm. William F. (Bull) Halsey’s order to his commanders to kill as many of the enemy as possible in the Pacific theater.

So the guys defense was "well, he said to kill everybody, so I did" and this implicates Patton. Umm, OK.

From that same review -

Was Patton a great general then? Despite Hirshson’s reservations, the answer is decidedly affirmative. Patton’s record speaks for itself. In Sicily, the American Army came of age under Patton’s forceful leadership and ruthless driving power. In Europe, Patton’s army advanced faster and farther and inflicted a greater number of casualties than any of Bradley’s four armies in 12th Army Group. In slightly more than a year of actual combat, Patton had indeed "earned his pay" in commanding troops in North Africa, Sicily and Europe. Small wonder that it was Patton whom the German commanders feared more than any other Allied commander.

Except, of course, the big, bad, rugby inventing Maori. In the words of German commanders -

Groß! Seine jene singenden Rugbyhalteseile wieder. Ich swear mich werde sich schießen, wenn ich zu ihrem dummen mehr kreischen hören muß.

[Edited by ABoselli on Jun 9th, 2003 at 12:57 PM]

[Sleeper]

No Sleeper not one of those 'World Series' professional leagues where only one country fields the teams (ie American football)I'm talking about rugby where there is a legitimate World Cup involving dozens of different countries, you know the ones you and ABoselli regard as insignificant eg. 'the rest of the world'. Sleeper plug these names into your finder - try... Brooke, Jones, Bunce, Reihana, Rush, Lomu, Stanley, Tefu,....for starters

>>>So sports like soccer, baseball, basketball, track and field are minor sports with inferior athletes that aren't played anywhere but the U.S.? I guess we can't let facts get in the way of a good story. Instead we will hold a subset of rugby up as the paragon of virtue you purport it to be? Whatever.

And nice evasion on the topic of how sports reflect the society they're in fellas - stacking, segregation etc (very quiet)no doubt as Bradley did with AB's Patton example many things can be ignored if you have a superiority complex!

>>>American sports reflect our society. It is a society driven by market economics and a consumer desire to see the best possible product on the field, regardless of the ethnic make up of the players. And the players are handsomely rewarded for their efforts. I am avoiding nothing you have written, its just that some is mindless ranting that doesn't make any sense. How is American Football segregated, how is American Society segregated and how are the two related? Give me examples rather than generalities.

As to Patton-It is an Army's job to kill people and break things with ruthless efficiency. Patton did this well. He was not out to win popularity contests, but to win and win convincingly. He did his job to the best of his knowledge and ability. If that is a reflection of the U.S., then I fine with that characterization.

If you have something specific, fine. If not, go away.

[JMN]

Hey Taha,

I've tried to stay out of this, but I need to ask you a few questions:

1) Is your real name Derock?

2) Regarding superiority, intelligence, and all that bull, what would be your elitist attitude if our beloved President Bush sent a few little boats, planes, and 'inferior' troops your way? Bring on your intellectual babble and tell a Stealth bomber with pinpoint targeting how smart you are. I'm sure that you will outsmart them! (by the way, our troops are colorless and from every ethnic persuasion; Hell there might even be a few "Maorians" in there, but they're all Americans and that's all you need to know, so quit with the racist crap)

3) Defaming Patton. I don't really care, but you can take anything out of context and make a case for it. Our liberal politicians do it all of the time. Maybe we should call you Taha "Clinton" Maori! War is hell, not pretty, and atrocities happen. My question, did Patton do more good or evil?

4) Did you infer that the U.S. doesn't do well in international competition because we're not big fans of rugby, soccer, and Maori football? We only win "world championships" within the U.S.? (I agree the term "world championship" is used pariochially and missused), but don't belittle our athletes. Just watch the next "world" Olympics.

5) I apologize if our independence and freedom makes us a bit arrogant. It's not on purpose or intended; instead I think it's just the difference between creating a new culture as we did a few hundred years ago vs. continuing in a tradition steeped in monarch rule.

6) Really, other than for the sport of dueling with you, this isn't the place for this discourse. My suggestion is that you publish a chat room or message board that you can invite others to attend if they are interested and leave this board for serious discussion of our inferior game of football. We as officials are not as enlightened as you Maorians. We actually need to keep studying to raise our collective consciousness.

Happy Trails, Taha!

[James Neil]

Originally posted by JMN
Hey Taha,

I've tried to stay out of this, but I need to ask you a few questions:

1) Is your real name Derock?

Happy Trails, Taha!

LOL, I swear JMN I was thinking the same thing .At first I was surprised that the Anti-Ref hadn't piped in with some of his insatiable rambling. But then I thought Ah-Ha ! , he just might be Taha LOL Good Ole Derock must be busy working some youth league Super Bowl tournament making the big-bucks LOL

[Taha Maori]

Great fellas some decent dialogue at last! Yes I agree most of the info (on Patton, the war etc) can be taken out of context but if you plug in the sentences they are downloaded from US sites! The only one that isn't is the German one on the origins of Ki-o-Rahi and the programme you used ABs to interpret the meaning was shocking!

And sleeper I agree the biggest influence in world sport are the globalised trends of 'The market economy' and 'consumerism'.

It is interesting how spectator appeal has been generated by entertainment packages at the games and awesome advertising strategies. I feel however that societies in general may suffer from this trend - of watching sport rather than playing them - because of increased obesity in all western populations and hence the bigger burdens on our health systems.

This is why I see diversity in sports as being healthy, because then people don't become straight-jacketed into participating or behaving within the sports and leisure domain. For instance if everyone followed American football, only a certain number could play (market forces) which leaves millions doing little but watching because of market dictates (ie consumerism practices).

Shouldn't a healthy population embrace diversity then?

Perhaps watch a little sport then go and play some sport themselves?

[Sleeper]

Diversity in sports should be driven by market forces, rather than by a forced distribution, allowing for consumer choice to dictate what people want to see. For instance, the US has every major professional sport, but the market determines which ones are the most successful by the tickes that are sold. In other countries, especially those where the populace lacks disposable income, the choices are greatly reduced (soccer and baseball as an example) and are driven by the cost to participate. The more limited the choices, the greater the passion for the choices that exist. That is why the balance of the world finds soccer (football) to be so important, yet the US is just now getting interested in the World Cup and professional soccer as a viable enterprise within the US. Even in the UK, which has a similar socio-economic structure to the US, soccer players are high-profile celebrities. In the US, soccer players are down the list from Football (college and pro), Baseball, Hockey, Basketball.

[ABoselli]

I think the inference here is that since these other unpopular sports may have origins in 'non-white' cultures, there is some underlying bias against them by our racist American society.

If people want to play soccer (as I think it is the #1 youth sport here in terms of participation), then let them play. If they want to play football, let them play. If they want to play rugby. let them play. Parents should encourage their kids to be active and participate in whatever they find enjoyable. If they see football, basketball and hockey on TV and want to do that, well, fine.

Millions here play softball, rec league basketball, hockey and soccer, run, bike, swim, weight train, hike, mountain climb, play tennis, golf etc. That's already pretty diverse.