Ki-o-Rahi (Maori football)

[Taha Maori]

Sports reflect the society they are in and similarly the society produces their replication through sports.

Ki-o-Rahi requires immense amounts of intelligence because of its concepts.It has been described as the 'PHD' of all contact sports.

The traits of intelligence in the game are a reflection of how Maori people ingeniously think. Take for instance the way 200 semi-armed Maori defeated 1700 well armed British soldiers at Gate Pa in NZ.Their main 'weapon' was their intelligence. This battle is described by historians as the classic example through NZ history of 'intelligence (Maori) vs technology (British)'.

This critical thinking is evident in our national traditional game (Ki-o-Rahi).

I would expect some similarly critical and indepth conversation on origins and application of American Football, any decent conversation would be appreciated!

[ABoselli]

So the British bombed the hell out of the fort all night, then went in through the hole they had made, got killed by the Maori's who were alive but hiding, skedaddled out of there, but eventually, they controlled the whole place and everybody there speaks the Queen's english, plays good golf and sails well.

That's the basis of the national game - hide inside the fort and then kill whitey? Well, whatever floats your boat.

[Taha Maori]

Ok if this is the level of debate? It is not uncommon to hear of fighting forces who credit their victories to strategic thinking they developed while playing sports. This is common around the world.

In this instance the post mortems credited the traditional game and its very complex concepts to the the strategising that those Maori used to turn 'certain' defeat into a victory which 'sent shockwaves around the world'.

Trench warfare was first used by Maori, this was then deployed in the Crimea and uselessly in WW1. It was used to effect by Maori but the use of trench warfare was not apt in WW1. Maori used trench warfare because they were always woefully ooutnumbered and the British could not comprehend such tactics. By the time of WW1 it was a known concept and proved fallible and its use extended the war by years!

Why would Rommel have said 'give me 3 Maori battalions and I will rule the world'? He was so impressed by the way they critically thought in battle - the same requirements are needed in the furnace of ki-o-rahi games. THe only enemy the Germans feared when it came to equal numbers or less were the Maori soldiers of the Maori Battalion. There are so many concepts in the game requiring a clever mix of physical attributes and mental agility.

You see in the traditional NZ game of Ki-o-rahi defence and attack are always changing, there are no stops or chances to evaluate from the sidelines it is one continual physical battle, with huge hits, and quick changes in tactics. The secret really is to keep thinking straight when the physical exertions are straining this ability.

The first pre-requisite for the game is intelligence because of the need to be an adaptive thinker, there are so many variables in the game. A 'dummy' cannot hope to survive with respect on the field of play.

So lets here about the pre-requisites for your sport 'ABs'?

[AndrewMcCarthy]

All depends on position. Some positions require speed, others strength, smarts, good hands, quicks, technique, or a combination of some or all.

The kickers are many times foreign guys.

Same thing goes for the officials- it varies by position.

[James Neil]

Originally posted by Taha Maori
Ok if this is the level of debate? It is not uncommon to hear of fighting forces who credit their victories to strategic thinking they developed while playing sports. There are so many concepts in the game requiring a clever mix of physical attributes and mental agility.

Ya , well tell me this ....do you guys have PSK ?

[ABoselli]

The only enemy the Germans feared when it came to equal numbers or less were the Maori soldiers of the Maori Battalion.

Was that before or after they ran into Patton's 7th Army?

[Taha Maori]

The Germans, man for man, were better trained and better disciplined. I thought so then and still think that man for man they were better soldiers than we were.

If we were inferior in so many areas why did we win the war?

There are many valid answers for that rhetorical question but I will give you one:

WE HAD AN ENORMOUS PRODUCTION ABILITY WHICH ABILITY WAS PROTECTED BY AN OCEAN 3000 MILES WIDE SO THAT IT WAS NEVER DAMAGED OR BOMBED.

WE OUTPRODUCED THE GERMANS AND EVERYBODY ELSE. NO MATTER HOW MUCH OF OUR EQUIPMENT WAS DESTROYED IN COMBAT WE ALWAYS HAD MORE.

As much as I hate to say it, and I do, if we and the Germans had the same equipment and the same replacement rates they might have beaten the living hell out of us. We were good but they were better!

One day I asked a German officer "How come we beat you?

His answer was "If we had one Tiger tank, you had ten Sherman tanks. If our Tiger tank destroyed 9 of the Shermans the 10th Sherman always got the Tiger Tank. We could not replace what we lost. You did so easily"

So it seems American football operates on the same principal of having (in effect) several dozen replacements in each side (on the sidelines), can you see now how sports reflect a society...or is it too clear? I'm not saying this is a good or bad thing just that sports reflect the society they evolve from. Is this a fair comment? The above sentences are from several of your veteran soldier sites. Kindest regards Taha!

[Taha Maori]

Proof of the Maori Battalion's superiority. Well, for one thing, the Germans themselves said the Maori Battalion were the best fighters. They said in North Africa the sound they feared most, nore than the shelling or anything, was the sound of the MAori Battalion doing the haka. It meant they were about to be attacked by the most savage of all the Allied troops.


again from your sites! You ofcourse need to understand german to understand where Rommel was coming from. The national game of Maori is an extremely physical sport and going into battle is probably on a par to having a game! The need to continually strategise for self preservation is essential so intelligence is paramount! Also statistically more Maori fought in both world wars than any other ethnic group. Courage, intellect and ability of Maori are reflected in their playing and fighting ability. Again the sport reflects the society it is spurned from. Regards again Taha!

[Taha Maori]

During the campaign seventy-three Italian prisoners were murdered by soldiers in the 45th Division. General Omar Bradley ordered two men to face a general court-martial for premeditated murder. The men's main defence was that they were obeying orders issued by Patton. In order to protect Patton from the charge of war crimes, Bradley decided to drop the investigation into the murder of the Italian soldiers.

AB's is this the Patton you refer to? Again from your own sites.

So "rules" can be transgressed as long as you can get away with them, would this be a fair reflection of American football, dressed up as gamesmanship, do you doubt AB that sport reflects the society it is embedded in?

In Ki-o-Rahi the players self ref their own game even in the heat of intense physical confrontation, they are still clear headed enough and mentally aware of the "rules". This is from the social to rep games.

Thanks for the great example of Patton, got any others?

[Sleeper]

I have been following the thread and I think I have reached my limit. Your view of history is rather warped, picking and choosing the facts that best suit whatever axe you are trying to grind. I know very little about New Zealand, so I am not even going to try to figure out what started this thread in the first place. American Football is a sport. It's that simple. It is not a socio-cultural expression of who we are, nor does it have any deeper meaning than just a pass time.

If you want to argue bravery, we have our own storys from the war. Every Congressional Medal of Honor winner has done the equivalent of the impossible. During WWII, Texas soldiers carrier their state flag, and were feared by the enemy because they were believed to be an elite unit from a seperate country that refused to die. Time and time again US soldiers beat the odds without the equipment and machinery you claimed they always had. No, we don't have a national warrior culture, but we have our heroes.

If you want to compare stories, look up the Battle of New Orleans in 1812, the Alamo, the Battle of San Jacinto, Bunker Hill, Gettysburg, Manassas, Battle of The Bulge, D-Day, and any other of the war stories. What you will find is men doing the best they can with what they have. Conversely you will also find stories about men making mistakes and losing both the battle and their life. Unlike you, I am more than willing to admit that we are not perfect, either as individuals or as soldiers.

If you want to argue millitary prowess, that is best measured by wins and losses. The US hasn't been beaten. Vietnam is an arguement, but we lost the PR battle in the press, not the war on the ground. The last time I checked, New Zealand was still a property of the crown. So, while the Maori may have been fierce warriors and brave fighters, they also lost. The US hasn't been a property of the crown since we beat the same army, just as out manned, out gunned and out manufactured as any other colony fighing for its freedom.

Germany had its manufacturing capability destroyed because they chose to pick a fight. So did Japan. Rommel got his tail kicked because he was arrogant and didn't believe he could be beaten. The supply issue was due to his superiors arrogance and when they over-extended their resources fighting a three-front war, one of which was a land-war in Russia (which history showed, yet again, couldn't be accomplished). In spite of all of your pejorative comments about the lack of US courage, intellegence or what ever you feel is lacking, you have yet to put together a cohesive arguement to support your assertions. The fact of the matter is that the US gets involved because we have to, we go in, do the job and ask for enough dirt, to quote Colin Powell, to bury our dead. We want a free world with free markets. That is why Europe and Japan were rebuilt from the ground up by US funds, that is why the US is still the largest provider of humanitarian aid in the world.

Now that we have the politics out of the way, lets address sports for a second. I have never seen the game to which you are referring. I don't know the first thing about it, which puts me at a disadvantage. I know that I enjoy watching rugby and Australian Rules Football, so I assume I would enjoy watching your game as well. You have every right to enjoy, participate in and be proud of your game. American football is a different game and comparing them would be like comparing apples and mangos. They both serve their purpose and they are both fruit, but the similarities end pretty soon after that. To say that one is better than the other is a matter of preference.

This is a Football Official's discussion board that deals in American Football. If you have questions about rules, interpretations, game management, etc., I know that there are lots of officials on here, including myself, that would love to help. If you aren't interested in officiating for this sport, please find a politics board or a general football board that debates these topics.

[Bob M.]

AMEN...

...Let's get back to football!!

[ABoselli]

I was enjoying this. It looks as if Taha Maori, under the guise of an innocent inquiry, was in fact looking for an opportunity to 1) extole the virtue, prowess and intelligence of his people by citing an obscure island game and an eventually lost war 150 years ago, known in detail to only those within a 200 mile radius 2) denigrate, ridicule and deride our game and country through anecdotes, insinuation and conjecture.

It's always in vogue to poke the 500 lb gorilla with a stick, because, after all, he is the 500 lb gorilla. People resent the big shot - especially these days.

I'm waiting for the inevitable follow up - how the Maori could have gone to the moon (if they wanted to due to their superior intelligence in ingenuity), how they could have really beaten back the British (if it had served their purpose), how they could have invented the light bulb, telephone, phonograph, defeated every major disease - if they had felt like it, due to their inherent, ingenious nature.

From what I have ever seen and heard, New Zealand is a very nice place. Very picturesque landscape and nice people. Biggest sporting event there is the America's Cup.

[Taha Maori]

Welcome ABoselli, maybe your definition of 'obscure' is different from what I know it to be, we both speak english but perhaps one of us does so with 'forked tongue'or to be kinder with warped perspectives?

This is an extract from a German site, are they more up with sports and their relationships with the society they inhabit? Do they perhaps care about what happens outside their borders? You will need to get this translated and you will then garnish a little better other world perspectives on our 'insignificant' part of the world:

"Der Poi-Dance hat eine lange und interessante Entwicklungsgeschichte. Der eigentliche Ursprung dieses Tanzes liegt in Neuseeland. Vor Jahrhunderten benutzten dort die Ureinwohner (die Maoris) eine Konstruktion, um große Moa-Eier zu transportieren...Steinen gefüllt und an einer bis zu 6 Meter langen Schnur befestigt...um Flexibilität, Koordination, Reaktionsfähigkeit und Schnelligkeit zu trainieren. Dieses Training wurde „Poi-Toa“ genannt.

Der nächste Schritt in der Entwicklung war der, daß hieraus ein Spiel entstand, das „Ki-o-rahi“."

Other nations have made the connections quite openly and appreciably, we are after all a global community?

And lets keep the focus on at least the philosophy of sport as I'm sure your fellow countrypeople would appreciate, regards once again Taha Maori.

[Taha Maori]

ABoselli I'm wondering if you may have some residual attitudes from the past which prevailed in American society about who should be playing football. Are you familiar with the term 'stacking' or rather do you acknowlidge it? Historically do you acknowledge that your 'suntanned' countrymen were excluded from A'ball because of segregation and were seen as being intellectually inferior, remember those (good old?) days.

The same happened in baseball and basketball, can you SEE ABoselli how sports reflect the society they are in?

NOw ABoselli which ethnic groups dominate ALL of those sports? but ofcourse its because of their physical prowess isn't it no way could/would you attribute it to intelligence? If a non 'suntanned' player makes it in the leagues the emphasis then goes on how intelligently they have overcome the odds!

And with regard to Maori inventing all those wonderful paraphenalia that you so adore we have a system of beliefs here called "kaitikitanga" which is an holistic appraisal of our environment which we believe sees us as the caretakers only of the environment for our future generations to live in - it is a huge responsobility so we try to live and preserve "papatuanuku" and "te AO" not ravish and deplete its resources as some societies (do you know of any) uncaringly do.

I will try this on you ABoselli and see how fast you balk!
Consistent with Maori living with the environment and not against it the major environmentally non-threatening developments technologically for Maori were in the area of leisure.

1)Maori independantly invented surfing.

2)They had their own form of hang-gliding (yes manned flight)called Manu tangata before the arrival of Abel Tasman and other explorers (1400's).

3)They developed several types of ball games from poi toa to ki to tapu ae to ki-o-rahi to waka poi...

4)they had snow boards before Tasman arrived

5)they developed an equivalent to your mocassins with spikes for climbing our largest mountain range - the southern alps. See "Greenstone Trails".

6)they had huge 'meets' where 5-10,000 people would congregate to play sports - all pre-European times

7)they regularly powered their way across the Pacific for thousands of miles in canoes in pre-european times without sextants, compasses etc (was it by intelligence or fluke?)


..if interested in more please don't hisitate to reply but I guess the above is about as unbelieving as stacking in football? Regards Taha.

[ABoselli]

The Poi Dance has a long and interesting history of the development. The actual origin of this dance lies in New Zealand. Centuries ago there the natives (the Maoris) used a construction, in order to transport large Moa eggs... stones filled and at one up to 6 meters are enough for cord fastened... around flexibility, co-ordination, to train reactivity and speed. This training became?Poi Toa? called. The next step in the development was that that from this a play developed?Ki o rahi?."

Yep, that clears it all up for me. Good old Poi dance. God Bless the Germans, fascinating insight, them being in touch with the global village and all....


Well, if we're going down a checklist of our respective people's achievements, let's see what I can muster

Maori - Hang gliding.-America - mechanized manned flight. Maori - Snow boards. ---America - telephone
Maori - spiked mocassins ---America - light bulb
Maori - canoes at sea ---America - manned space flight
Maori - kooky ball games ---America - nuclear power
Maori - umm, snow boards ---America - personal computer
Maori - uhh, oh yea, spiky mocassins---America - automobile

Yep, we sure are a bunch of dummies.

Maori - conquered people. Stayed conquered. Forced to adopt language and culture of Great Britain. Brits let them play their ancient tribal games to keep them happy. Appears to work.

America - Gave Great Britain the boot. Beat them again in 1812. Like them fine now, but their queen aint on our money. Saved the world from Nazi Germany and Japan after being sneak attacked. Turned around and rebuilt both Germany and Japan. Became the dominant cultural, economic and military power in the world.

Like to watch American football on the weekend. Don't give a rats *** about New Zealand. The eagle doesn't hunt flies - understand that one, Mr. Global Perspective?

[Edited by ABoselli on Jun 6th, 2003 at 08:04 PM]