Fed FBZ accidentally ends

[Robert Goodman]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I am not following you. What ramifications are you worried about or what is changed by a new rule? I might be like others here, not sure what has changed or what makes this illegal?

What's changed is that Fed is now saying that in the case described, don't look for whether contact occurred before or after the ball left the FBZ, just deem it legal or illegal as specified. (This is not brand new thinking. Rulings from state ***'ns saying the same thing were brought up here & elsewhere last year. At least one state ***'n adopted a different ruling in that case, and most said nothing.)

So what I'm saying is, if the conditions are altered a little as I wrote above, do you try to adapt that case ruling to the altered conditions, or do you treat the case ruling as sui generis and just go by the rule?

I have trouble understanding why you have trouble understanding what I'm asking.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Robert Goodman

What's changed is that Fed is now saying that in the case described, don't look for whether contact occurred before or after the ball left the FBZ, just deem it legal or illegal as specified. (This is not brand new thinking. Rulings from state ***'ns saying the same thing were brought up here & elsewhere last year. At least one state ***'n adopted a different ruling in that case, and most said nothing.)

So what I'm saying is, if the conditions are altered a little as I wrote above, do you try to adapt that case ruling to the altered conditions, or do you treat the case ruling as sui generis and just go by the rule?

I have trouble understanding why you have trouble understanding what I'm asking.

I guess what I was confused because I see nothing in the case play you showed that is a representation of a change. A shotgun formation means that the person receiving the snap is likely out of the zone and if there is a delay that would be too late because the ball is out of the zone. I think your situation that you created is kind of muddying the water by only focusing on an unusual situation. I would do the same thing I always did. If the ball has "left the zone" then they cannot block below the waist. If the ball is still in the zone, they can. Keep it simple.

Peace

[Robert Goodman]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I guess what I was confused because I see nothing in the case play you showed that is a representation of a change. A shotgun formation means that the person receiving the snap is likely out of the zone and if there is a delay that would be too late because the ball is out of the zone.

Yeah? But how do you know that even without a delay, the ball didn't leave the FBZ 1st? Otherwise why would a ruling have been issued? Why would there have been at least one state association that said that if the ball is snapped out of the FBZ, even an immediate BBW is disallowed?

There are various blocking techniques that take various amounts of time, even if delay doesn't make up any part of them. If I'm trying to cut an opponent a position and a half over on the line, the steps to get there are going to take longer than to cut an opponent lined up between my shoulders. Similarly if I'm on defense and the player I'm trying to cut has to take an extra step to get to where I'm laying out.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Robert Goodman

Yeah? But how do you know that even without a delay, the ball didn't leave the FBZ 1st? Otherwise why would a ruling have been issued? Why would there have been at least one state association that said that if the ball is snapped out of the FBZ, even an immediate BBW is disallowed?

There are various blocking techniques that take various amounts of time, even if delay doesn't make up any part of them. If I'm trying to cut an opponent a position and a half over on the line, the steps to get there are going to take longer than to cut an opponent lined up between my shoulders. Similarly if I'm on defense and the player I'm trying to cut has to take an extra step to get to where I'm laying out.

Who cares what some state association wants if you do not work for them. I am sure the NF does not really care what they want anyway or based their ruling based their interpretations. Again, keep it simple. If the ball is in the FBZ then BBW is allowed under previous circumstances. You seemed to have thought up something that would not only be rare, but unlikely. Why worry about a third world situation that is not likely going to happen in the first place?

Peace

[HLin NC]

only for cases where the ball was both intended to be, and was successfully, snapped out of the FBZ.

I don't think we have to deal with intent. The ruling never said "don't look to see what actually happened to the ball at the snap." The ruling deals with a narrow situation in which the committee assumes its a successful shotgun snap and thus allows an A lineman to commit a legal BBW in that limited circumstance. Add any other variable to it and you now don't have the case play, you've created your own and trying to extrapolate a ruling from a limited circumstance.

Botched plays occur all the time. We don't waive ineligible downfield on a busted scrimmage kick because A intended to punt but ended up throwing a pass while some of their lineman drifted off downfield.

[Mike L]

Robert,

A's "intention" of where the ball was "supposed go" is immaterial. All that matters is where the ball did go and when the block happens.

You are using a poor case book example for your point. In that example A1 is 7 yds back, clearly out of the zone. What NFHS rules is it is possible for A linemen to legally BBW if it is done immediately after the snap because they deem the ball to still be in the zone in this type formation. If there is any delay, the ball is out & BBW is now illegal. Consider the time it takes the snapped ball to travel 3+ yds vs the reaction times of the linemen to grasp their point. Personally, I don't think it's possible for them to legally BBW at all, but that's a whole other argument.

In your example, A1 sets up 2 yds behind the line, which when you think about it is just about standing directly behind the center. So now, if A1 muffs the snap, the covering official is going to have to determine if the ball rolled out of the zone prior to the BBW or not. The ball rolling out after a muff/fumble is no different than if it gets carried out or thrown out or whatever.

[HLin NC]

Because I coach. I'm a lot less interested in things like the color of whistles or of eye black, and a lot more in things that can actually affect the game.

While issues of eye black WILL effect you this season as a coach, I'm sure pink whistles do not. I don't care much about the topic either as our state supervisor told us last year "don't even ask." However, for some of us it is a topic of interest.

I appreciate your efforts to apply what officials might rule towards a coaching situation. I believe that MikeL and I have provided reasonable answers to your question. It just took some time and probing to figure out what it was you were asking. Its been a standard NFHS prinicple for officials to usually not be required to devine intent.

[Robert Goodman]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Who cares what some state association wants if you do not work for them. I am sure the NF does not really care what they want anyway or based their ruling based their interpretations. Again, keep it simple. If the ball is in the FBZ then BBW is allowed under previous circumstances. You seemed to have thought up something that would not only be rare, but unlikely. Why worry about a third world situation that is not likely going to happen in the first place?

Because I coach. I'm a lot less interested in things like the color of whistles or of eye black, and a lot more in things that can actually affect the game.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Robert Goodman

Because I coach. I'm a lot less interested in things like the color of whistles or of eye black, and a lot more in things that can actually affect the game.

What does that mean? As an official I belong to one state association, what another association does is not my concern. I have to answer to my people and a play like this if there is an issue I talk to my people and do what they want. What Iowa, Wisconsin, Ohio or Michigan does would not concern me one bit. Which is why if this is a problem, ask your people and see what they think. But from what I can tell you are trying to find an obscure situation to be worried about.

Peace

[HLin NC]

First off, I went through all the free blocking zone case plays from 2010 and 2011. There was no change in the wording so it isn't new.

I think what he is trying to proffer is this: the interpretation for BBW in the FBZ on shotgun snaps was that the block by A had to occur on the initial charge. A could not delay the block for any reason- couldn't rise and/or step back.

He's saying (I think) that you don't have to see the ball under that interpretation, you just look for the initial charge. However, he throws in a piece by saying that the ball deflects off an A player on the snap and doesn't immediately "fly" out of the FBZ.

A1 snaps on the A35. A2 at the A33 seems to unintentionally have the snap glance off him. The ball rolls to the A29, where A2 picks it up and runs to the A40, where he is down. Meanwhile A3, playing a position on A's line within 4 yards of where the ball was previously spotted, takes one step back before cutting B1 at the knees.

I think you have to go back to all the elements of the FBZ. I don't believe we delve into intentional and unintentional errant snaps. The ball is in the zone or it isn't. Where was the ball when A BBW'd B? The snap struck A2 at the A33. The FBZ ended at the A32. Its going to be close but since A3 took one step backward first, its probably going to be an illegal block at that point.

[Robert Goodman]

Originally Posted by HLin NC

I think you have to go back to all the elements of the FBZ.

So you're saying that unless the details of the case play match pretty close to exactly, go by the rule instead of the ruling. Meaning that the case play was a narrow exception, only for cases where the ball was both intended to be, and was successfully, snapped out of the FBZ.

Of course I still have the questions about the ruling, concerning what constitutes "delay". It's not like Fed couldn't be clearer than that; the USFA was in the variant rules they wrote concerning the initial charge. For instance, they could say that the case applies as long as the player making contact was moving continuously forward; or if they wanted a narrower exception, they could say it applies to opponents who were within a certain distance at the snap and the one making contact was moving forward continuously.