I'm back in the 1st and 10 from the 25 camp. Sorry I was gone. I'm married to this sucker.

Going over rules can never replace actually working games to stay sharp. When does football start?

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Ed Hickland
[B]You left off a key part of Rule 5-3-1. It starts off by saying <b>When a new series of downs is awarded</b>, the line-to-gain is established after all penalties have been enforced before the ready for play. This rule doesn't specify when a new series of downs is awarded but 5-1-2 does. My understanding is you must apply rule 5-1-2 first before you can apply 5-3-1. If 5-3-1 is contingent upon when a new series of downs is awarded (5-1-2) but you don't clearly understand rule 5-1-2, then how can you effectively apply rule 5-3-1???

AGREE !

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Derock1986
One more time!

This comes directly from the 1997 Case Book. How much more definitive can you get. Rule 5-1-2 was a 1997 Editorial Change and it so states:

Coverage was added to specify how a new series is awarded when enforcement of penalties are involved. The coverage was added to clarify establishing the line to gain and setting the equipment when a new series is gained.

After a first, second or third down, a new series of downs is awarded only after considering the effect of any act during the down and any dead-ball foul. However, on fourth down a new series must be gained without benefit of a penalty for a nonplayer or unsportsmanlike foul.

Once a new series is awarded to either Team A or Team B, the penalties for all fouls, including nonplayer and unsportsmanlike, are administered before the chain and box are set indicating the line to gain. This additional coverage should help clarify the procedure.

Rule 5-1-2b in other words states, for all downs except fourth when you reach the line-to-gain penalties will be applied and the chain set for the new series. But, on a fourth down A must reach the line-to-gain during the down. Any penalties occurring after the down against B will not cause A to be awarded a first down.

The reason for 5-1-2 is Fundamental I-7 states after a distance penalty the ball belongs to the team in possession of the ball at the time of the foul.

Team A failing to make the line-to-gain has turned possession to Team B. Any dead ball, unsportsmanlike or nonplayer fouls cannot cause Team A to maintain possession.

With that Derock, I rest my case.

Mr Neil,
could you please help me understand this rule. If you haven't been following the posts, the situation is stated in an earlier post. The applicable rule is 5-1-2 and 5-3-1.

Thanks Ed and everyone else. I started in 1998 so I was unaware of the actual change to the wording.

There is also a fundamental that states the action during the down must occur during a live ball. I am now back in the 1/10 instead of the 2/5 camp.

I apologize for being so confused. For some reason I was thinking the dead ball personal fouls were somehow enforced differently than dead ball UC fouls. They aren't enforced differently and the casebook clearly gives an example of a UC foul after the line to gain has been reached.

I'm a little embarrassed about my difficulty understanding this rule.



Is there any way to encourage the NF to clean up the wording?



[Edited by mikesears on Jan 21st, 2003 at 06:24 AM]

THIS IS NOT ROCKET SCIENCE!!!
 

I'm amazed that a simple enforcement of dead ball fouls has caused such an uproar. In my 25 years of experience, dead ball fouls (and USCs treated as DB) have ALWAYS been enfored from the suceeding spot. Prior to 1997 (thanks Ed) the chains would be set and then the penalty assesed. The NF changed the enforcement policy (thus changing the order of events) to assess the penalty and then set the chains.

Mike Sears presented two plays that have the same enforcement. The first has the offense reaching the LTG and second they don't. Both plays are enforced the same way! Both DB fouls were assesed from the suceeding spot.

I don't have my rule book with me but I would guess that Rule 10 (Penalty Enforcement) might have a special enforement statement regarding DB penalties.

This is a great example of the necessity of rules knowledge; that, as an official, one needs to combine several rules/intrepretations to properly administer the game.

Read carefully, Derock...
 

REPLY: Derock...I'm not suggesting that <u><b>I</b></u> will change the rule, but I do suggest that the Federation change it to make it consistent with their case book and the principle upon which it's based.

Change the wording....
 

My point in the original point was that I was a bit confused and troubled by the wording of the rule. It sounded like a new series (i.e a first down) wasn't awarded to team A until every act during the down AND all dead ball fouls were considered. So because Team A commited a dead ball foul, they couldn't be awarded a new series until every action that occured was considered (including dead ball fouls). That is a way it could easily be interpreted.

Here is how I arrived at my initial conclusion:

Rule 5-1-1:
Each awarded first down starts a new series of first downs.
I translated this as "When a team obtains a first down, it begins a new set of four downs.

Rule 5-1-2:
A new series (see 5-1-1) is awarded as follows:
After a first,second, or third down, a new series of downs shall be awarded ONLY AFTER considering the effect of any act during the down <b><u>and any dead ball foul</u></b>.

Here is how I translated it in my own words (intially)

On downs 1-3, all acts commited during the down and after the down are taking into consideration before awarding a team a first down. It is the dead ball stuff that is confusing by the way the rule is worded, (can we agree this is confusing if we simply read the words)?

However, casebook play 5.3.1C gives an example of a UC foul (penalized like a dead ball foul) where the ruling is different than my line of thinking and a football fundamental goes against it as well.

I would edit the rule as follows:

A new series (see 5-1-1) is awarded as follows:
After a first,second, or third down, a new series of downs shall be awarded ONLY AFTER considering the effect of any act during the down. <b>A dead ball foul may also advance the ball beyond the line to gain.</b>

I might further put football fundamental II.2 somewhere in this rule. "Whether the next down will be first is determined at the time the ball becomes dead and after considering any act, except nonplayer and unsportsmanlike foul, which occured <b>during</b> (emphasis mine) the down."

I'd further change rule 5-3-1 to say (words added are in bold print):

The line to gain is 10 yards in advance of the ball's foremost point when a new series of downs is awarded. When a new series of downs is awarded, all <b>dead ball</b> fouls committed prior to the ready-for-play signal shall be administered before the line-to-gain is established. The line to gain then remains fixed until the series ends and a new series is awarded.

Sorry for the rambling post. Hope everyone can follow me. I am now firmly in the 1/10 camp (unless my High School Association Interpretter tells me something different :) )

Re: Change the wording....
 

I'm like a one armed paper hanger here without my rule book but let me carry on:

Rule 5-1-1:
Each awarded first down starts a new series of first downs.
I translated this as "When a team obtains a first down, it begins a new set of four downs.

Rule 5-1-2:
A new series (see 5-1-1) is awarded as follows:
After a first,second, or third down, a new series of downs shall be awarded ONLY AFTER considering the effect of any act during the down <b><u>and any dead ball foul</u></b>.

Rule 5-1-1 is very staight forward, Team A, in the sample play, obtained (was awarded)a first down. They advanced the ball beyond the LTG. Rule 5-1-2 seems to talk about plays in which A does NOT reach the LTG during the play. (Why fourth down is not included I don't know!) In which case the acceptance or declination of any live or dead ball penalties may or may not result in a first down (new series).

Suppose that B commited the DB foul, we have no problem advancing the ball 15 yards, 1/10 for A. I don't see any difference in enforcement if A commits the foul (1/10 A 15 yards behind the basic spot).

This play, prior to 1997, would have been enforced the same as today. The only difference is that prior to '97 it would be 1/25; today it is 1/10.

I agree with you Mike that the language of the rule is suspect (in particular the word "any" refering to dead ball fouls). I have no doubt, however, that educated, experienced officials will enforce this siuation correctly despite the vague rule wording.

Rule 5-2-1 tells us when a first down is awarded and that is only after considering any act during the down and any dead ball foul. Seems they were only thinking about B fouls and not A DB fouls. Just because they get a first down during the play doesn't mean they automatically get a first and 10.

1/10 Team A's ball on the A-20. A32 runs for 15 to the A-35. A78 is called for holding at the A-36. Down and distance after the penalty? 2 and 5 at the A-25, right?

The rule says we don't award a new series until we consider the hold (or action during the down).

Same situation, except instead of holding, we have a DB personal foul.

The rule again seems to say we don't award a new series until we consider the dead ball foul.

See my confusion here? The rule seems to indicate that dead ball fouls are to be treated BEFORE the awarding of a first down when in fact, they are treated AFTER awarding the first down but before the line to gain is established.

I'm trying to explain WHAT I read in this rule. I'm not trying to be difficult.

Let me try at this! :-)

From everything that I have read of you guys quoting the example from Mikes post

1/10 Team A's ball on the A-20. A32 runs for 15 to the A-35. A78 is called for holding at the A-36. Down and distance after the penalty? 2 and 5 at the A-25
Would be correct
But if you change it to where A32 runs for 25 to the A-45
A78 is called for holding and then there is a dead ball personal foul on A also. Wouldn't it then be 1/25 from the A-20

Or am I just really confused

LOL , yes you're a little confused . But don't worry about it Poosh . I been doing this for three years now and I'm still very confused 8^) . Here's how I look at this 1/10 bussness . The only time you're going to have a 1/25 is when you have give A a 1/10 ,then set the chains blow the ready and then A commits a dead ball foul . If someone can come up with another example I'd love to hear it .

Re: Change the wording....
 

I'll wait to see what your high school interpreter has to say. As soon as you find out, please update this post. Thanks!


__________________________________
<i>But I'm only a youth official so what do I know.
Derock</i>

The chances of a having an unsportsmanlike or a dead ball personal after the ready-for-play and before the snap are highly unlikely since the time between the ready and the snap cannot be by rule more than 25 seconds.

You can and will get 1st and 15 from a false start but major penalties are rare in that 25 second interval.