Who cares where the old line-to-gain was. Now this is when the common sense has to kick into gear and make a ruling. A first down has been declared and the signal given. The chains are now moving but A commits a foul before the chains are reset with the new line to gain. My ruling in this situation would be to penalize A from the new line-to-gain. Eventhough the RFP signal has not been given, the new series of downs has already been awarded.

Oops, see NFHS rule 5-3-1. You see I am learning!

___________________________
<i>But I'm only a youth official so what do I know.
Derock</i>

[Edited by Derock1986 on Jan 20th, 2003 at 04:56 PM]

Derock,
This situation does not rely on common sense. It ONLY relies on the CORRECT understanding of the rules. You, by sheer luck, come up with the right enforcement. 5 years ago the rules were different. It would have been 1st and 25. Was it fair? Did it make "common sense"? Probably not, but that was the rule. Once again you want to officiate ( and I use that term loosely) by the seat of your pants with total disregard for the written rules.

Maybe you can't do this under Fed rules but under NCAA rules it is easy. You know where the succeeding spot is (i.e. where the ball is about to be snapped from). Step off the yardage from there and THEN set the chains. It will still be 1st and 10 though.

I don't know Steve I think the rule is rather clear and I have quoted them from the NFHS rule book to aid in EVERYONE's understanding. I'm just trying to learn like everyone else.

5-1-2-a. On 1-2-3 down, you do not award a new series of downs until considering the effects of any act during the down and any dead-ball foul.

5-1-2-b. On 4th down, you do not award a new series of downs until considering the effects of any act during the down, other than a nonplayer or unsportsmanlike foul.

5-3-1. When a new series of downs is awarded, the penalties for all fouls (including nonplayer and unsportsmanlike) committed prior to the ready-for-play signal shall be administered before the line to gain is established.


_____________________________________
<i>But I'm only a youth official so what do I know.
Derock</i>

Re: NF 5-1-2
 

Careful Bob M, modifying the rules is what got me in hot water!






__________________________________
<i>But I'm only a youth official so what do I know.
Derock</i>

Aboselli, your girlfriend is my sister. Welcome to the family!!!



_____________________________
<i>But I'm only a youth official so what do I know.
Derock</i>

One thing that is vitally important for understanding the rules is to use the proper language as defined in Rule 2 and the Fundamentals.

Rule 5-1-2 talks about the end of the down and 5-3-1 specifies an award of first down occurs only after all penalties have been enforced. The key phrase from Fundamental X.4 is all dead ball fouls are enforced from the succeeding spot.

It would be confusing to set the chains then have an unsportsmanlike or dead ball foul occur before the ready. But by rule they should be set a second time.

Of course, the average coach and most spectators would not understand and just maybe the "common sense" official walks off 15 yards for a first and 25. Unfortunately, the "common sense" official looks good while those who go by the rules are busy explaining to the coach why he did what he did.

But, how often would you get an unsportsmanlike or dead ball personal after the chains are set and before the ready?

I have to disagree with you Mr Ed. Rule 5-1-2 talks about awarding a new series of down. 5-3-1 talks about penalty enforcement AFTER a new series of downs has been awarded and before the ready for play signal. In the situation provided by Mike Sears, a new series of downs had not been awarded and by rule 5-1-2 you must consider the effects of any act during the down AND any dead-ball foul BEFORE you award a new series of downs. The dead ball foul will be enforced from the succeeding spot but the result of the play and dead ball foul brings up 2nd and 5.



___________________________
<i>But I'm only a youth official so what do I know.
Derock</i>

Derock,
I thought you finally got it. You quoted the rules so well.(Almost as well as I did in my previous post). But, alas, you still don't. It's first and ten for A. The dead ball foul occurred after the play is over. A new series was not awarded, It was earned by A's efforts. Therefore they get the first down, and then the foul for the DEAD BALL late hit is enforced. You can't quote rules and then misapply them. Another great call from the Derock rule book.

Oh boy.. When in doubt, crack open the case book and you're sure to find an example somewhere.

Situation 5.3.1 C: 3rd&10 for A from the B-40. A1 gains 10 yards and is downed at the B-30. A2 taunts B1 during the run.
RULING: Since the live ball action gave a a new series, the line to gain will be established after A is penalized for A2's unsportsmanlike act. It will be 1st&10 for A from the B-45.

It makes no difference that this a live ball penalized as a dead ball foul. A dead ball foul for a late hit would be penalized the same way.

Steve, I don't understand what you're talking about.

What do you mean by a new series was earned by A's efforts??? Are you implying that A gets a new series of downs just because they achieved the line to gain?

Rule 5-1-2 says before A is awarded a new series of downs, consider the effects of any act during the down AND any dead ball fouls.


____________________________________
<i>But I'm only a youth official so what do I know.
Derock</i>

Guys.... He's writing his own book , give it up !

Derock, with all due respect, you are incorrectly interpreting the rules. Rule 5-1-2 was newly written with the rule change in 1997 in order to clarify the award of a new series. Rule 5-3-1 as revised clearly states the line-to-gain is established after all penalties have been enforced before the ready for play . Also, apply Fundamental X.4 "Penalty enforcement for any dead ball, nonplayer or unsportsmanlike foul is from the succeeding spot."

On the play in question A had reached the line-to-gain when the down ended. First down. Check my earlier post and it refers to a couple of case book plays to enforce this. You indicate first down. Then you march off 15 yards against A for a dead ball foul from the succeeding spot -- the end of the run. At that point you apply 5-3-1 and establish a new line-to-gain.

I also quoted the previous rule and the big change was no longer did you establish the line-to-gain from the succeeding spot which caused offenses to end up with a new series starting up to 25 yards to the line-to-gain.

I think many of us here are in agreement 5-1-2 does not properly convey its meaning and that happens often throughout the rule book. That is why every chapter has a knowledgeable rule interpreter to address these ambiguities.

<i>Aboselli, your girlfriend is my sister. Welcome to the family!!!</i>

I'm breaking up with her.

Derock.

YES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Thats right, they got the first down and the play ended before the foul. Its the same concept of penalizing from the spot of the foul after a 40 yard gain. They get the yards they earned without the benefit of the foul.

Here,the down was over before the foul was committed. FIRST DOWN. Then enforce the dead ball foul. I think you even stated this in an earlier post.

I give up. I think this guy is doing this on purpose to get us angry. Nobody can really officiate like this.