Derock,

I read this board rather infrequently and may have posted to it only once or twice. But some of the threads below got my attention. Some of your theories about "game sense" vs. rules knowledge are disturbing. Why must the two be considered mutually exclusive?? The good (and successful) official must have a healthy helping of both of those qualities as well as human relations, mechanics knowledge, communication skills, professional demeanor and some other things. Don't try to weigh one against the other. Blend them all into a complete package. No official can be truly successful relying only on game sense any more than an official can survive relying only on rules knowledge.

I officiate HS and college ball and have been at this game for 24 years. I have a pretty good knowledge of both the Federation and NCAA rule books and I like to think I can apply common sense to game situations.

I have a friend who's a head linesman in the NFL. He didn't get there by accident. Does he know his rules? Probably better than you or I ever will. Does he employ a common sense approach to the game? If he didn't, he would never have reached the level at which he's now working, nor would he have worked in the playoffs for the last two years. He even conducts a clinic each season called "Common Sense Officiating" for our HS and college associations. The theme of his clinic: applying a common sense approach to officiating the game within the context of a solid foundation in the rules and mechanics.

Derock, as a new official, you might even be ahead of the game. Often, newer officials learn the rules and blindly enforce them without regard for how the game is proceeding or how a particular play is developing. It's only after a few years that they learn (often the hard way) to apply the God-given gift of common sense. But now, you need to learn the rules thoroughly. Common sense alone will only get you so far. If you want to progress beyond pee-wee or youth ball, you need to attack the rule book and case book in earnest.

One other thing that ALL good officials know: Never discount out of hand anything a more experienced official says. Hear it, evaluate it, test it out, and decide whether or not it works for you. Many of the guys who post here have been trying to get through to you on the value a a solid knowledge of the rules. To this point, it appears that you'd rather argue with them than listen. Swallow your pride, listen to them, study the rules, and apply your game sense next season with that knowledge to back up any decisions you make. Good luck and best wishes for a satisfying career in stripes.

Excellent post, Bob M!

I think you summed up being a good official very well.

Good post Bob.

There are some officials who rely almost entirely "game sense" and just pay passive attention to the rules. Of course, they don't come to this board, or review the rules or take the annual test seriously. But somehow seem to show up each week for the game.

Thank you Bob M. I understand and agree with your post. I tried to explain myself as best as I can to all the officials who post here that I am a "youth" official and that my posts are based entirely upon my experience in officiating youth games under NFHS rules. I never came here to challenge anyone's knowledge NOR was I looking to be taught or teach the rules. It was my understanding that this forum was open to anyone who wished to post their comments, statements, or opinions on the forum subject. One thing that we all have in common is we all share a love or interest for the game of football. I am not here representing anyone and I value the posts of other officials about as much as they value mine. In my experience in youth football, the use of common sense (game sense) is utilized just as much as rule knowledge. If my emphasis of game sense vs rule knowledge is found to be disturbing then I can certainly understand coming from an official who does not officiate youth games. Let me emphasize the fact that I work with kids! You can't deal with kids the same way you deal with adults. The kids play under the same rules as the adults (high schoolers) but you have to take a more common sense approach in applying those rules when you're dealing with 8 year olds vs 18 year olds. Now if my working with youths means I'm less of an official then I certainly do not agree with that. I am just as good at calling my youth games than any official officiating at any level. An NFL official may find it extremely difficult to officiate youth just as I would find it almost impossible to officiate NFL. Why? Different rules AND an entirely different approach and style of officiating. You yourself said that I might even be ahead of the game when it comes to using common sense. I am convinced that this is because of my experience entirely as a youth official. If I decide to take my game to the varsity level, then rule knowledge will become more of a factor. Please don't misunderstand me, learning the rules is the most important part of becoming an official but some of the questions/cases mentioned in this forum are way to complex for youth. When dealing with youth, I keep it simple. There won't be any calls made in my games that will require a rule book to explain. I will manage the game where it will be safe, fair, and entertaining for the players, coaches, and spectators. Youth football is all about the kids. There are no scholarships or careers at stake. No money is involved. Nothing ruins youth athletics more than adults who take it way too seriously. I'm not just referring to the out-of-control parent but also the out-of-control official who has dreams of one day officiating in the NFL or college and calls the youth game with the spirit of an NFL or college official.

I am very good at what I do (officiating YOUTH games) and I will continue to post freely, as I have, my comments and opinions supported from my experience as a youth official. If you disagree with my posts, thats ok. As I said earlier, I'm not trying to teach anyone anything and common sense gets better with experience. I would question why someone would come to an online forum (which is mostly opinionated) to learn or better yourself as an official. I am sure there are more credible sources online where you could get information on officiating than this forum. I think the officials come here and respond to my posts because they find debatable subjects fun. If everyone here agreed on everything, visits would probably drop.

Derock...I have been coming here for awhile and I see alot of posts towards you and alot of arguments with you. You said that you cannot deal with kids the same way as adults. I am guessing around 90% or more of the officials here are dealing with Junior High and older and most of the threads are about those game situations. So when you try to bring your youth situations into an older kids game situation, that is why nobody agrees with you.

You say that youth games are all about the kids. I agree that you have to let them play a little more but you also have to teach them the rules of the game. No money is at stake, but them learning the game how it is supposed to be played is at stake.

The third part of your quote says you wonder why someone would come here to learn. Well I came here because there are alot of officials posting here that have alot of knowledge about the game and how to officiate it. If you would read these posts instead of just looking at them, you will learn as well. I trust what alot of these guys say because of the time they put into their preparations. My goal is to go beyond high school ball into NCAA. That's why I want to learn and when you listen you can learn alot. That is fine if you want to do youth games, that's your choice. BUT remember that guys are also here that want to move up so don't give youth game situations in replace of high school situations. I am not here to rag on you, just trying to say what others have tried saying to you in different ways.

This "Seat of the Pants" & "Make the rules up as you go" style of officiating is why I continue to say you are not a football official.
You never will be until you lose the attitude!

Quote:

Originally posted by Derock1986 "There won't be any calls made in my games that will require a rule book to explain. I will manage the game where it will be safe, fair, and entertaining for the players, coaches, and spectators."

Ok Derock, answer these questions from your youth ball perspective.

1. Team A INTENTIONALLY lines up with the following players all on the line of scrimmage (from left to right).

<b>First Formation</b>
T76 G65 C54 G66 T78 R83 R87

The QB lines up under center....

<i>
a. Is there anything illegal about the formation?
b. Who is eligible?
c. What is the call if an illegible is downfield and is first to touch the ball?
</i>

<b>Second Formation:</b>
T76 G65 C54 G66 T78 R83 R88 R89

The QB lines up 7 yards deep in a shotgun formation.

<i>
a. Is there anything illegal about the formation?
b. Who is eligible?
</i>



2. K kicks to R. While the ball is bouncing towards the R's goal line, it strikes R1 in the leg and continues on its own momentum into R's endzone. R1 recovers the ball in his own endzone. What is the call?

3. 1/10 from A-20. A32 runs the ball 20 yards to the A-40. Several seconds after the ball is dead, A78 blocks and levels B99. Please assess the penalty and state down and distance.

4. Same as #3 except A32 only runs the ball 2 yards to the A-22.

5. :05 left in the first half. 1/10 from the A-20. A32 runs the ball 4 yards and the clock expires during the down. During the run, A78 held B99 at the A-22. What are the options here?

[QUOTE]Originally posted by mikesears
[B]

Quote:

Originally posted by Derock1986 "There won't be any calls made in my games that will require a rule book to explain. I will manage the game where it will be safe, fair, and entertaining for the players, coaches, and spectators."

<b>
Ok Derock, answer these questions from your youth ball perspective.

1. Team A INTENTIONALLY lines up with the following players all on the line of scrimmage (from left to right).</b>

<b>First Formation</b>
T76 G65 C54 G66 T78 R83 R87

The QB lines up under center....

<i>
a. Is there anything illegal about the formation?
b. Who is eligible?
c. What is the call if an illegible is downfield and is first to touch the ball?
</i></b>
<i>Posted by Derock</i>
A. Looks legal to me.
B. T76 and R87 are eligible.
C. Inelligible receiver down field. 10-yards from previous spot, replay the down (YOUTH--NFHS may be a loss of down)

<b>Second Formation:
T76 G65 C54 G66 T78 R83 R88 R89

The QB lines up 7 yards deep in a shotgun formation.

<i>
a. Is there anything illegal about the formation?
b. Who is eligible?
</i></b>
<i>Posted by Derock</i>

A. Formation looks legal to me.
B. T76 and R89 are eligible.

<b>
2. K kicks to R. While the ball is bouncing towards the R's goal line, it strikes R1 in the leg and continues on its own momentum into R's endzone. R1 recovers the ball in his own endzone. What is the call?</b>

<i>Posted by Derock</i>
A kick that goes to the endzone in youth is extremely rare but I'll give it a shot. Touchback. R gets the ball on their 20 yard line.

<b>
3. 1/10 from A-20. A32 runs the ball 20 yards to the A-40. Several seconds after the ball is dead, A78 blocks and levels B99. Please assess the penalty and state down and distance.</b>

<i>Posted by Derock</i>
I have a dead ball personal foul on A78. The enforcement spot is from the end of the run, 15-yard penalty, Team A has the ball 1/10 from B-45.

<b>
4. Same as #3 except A32 only runs the ball 2 yards to the A-22. </b>

<i>Posted by Derock</i>
Team A has the ball 1/10 from A-37.

<b>
5. :05 left in the first half. 1/10 from the A-20. A32 runs the ball 4 yards and the clock expires during the down. During the run, A78 held B99 at the A-22. What are the options here?</b>

<i>Posted by Derock</i>
The defense has the option of accepting the penalty and replaying or extending the half by one down OR they can decline the penalty and the half is over. If they accept the penalty it will be 1/18 (penalized from the spot of the foul) from the A-12.

How was that? Do I meet your approval as an official now? Can I now be an accepted member of this elite forum? Doesn't matter because I'll be on the field calling my games just like every other official here will be.

[Edited by Derock1986 on Jan 20th, 2003 at 08:24 AM]

<b>Posted by Derock</b>
A. Looks legal to me.

<u>Posted by Mike</u>
<i> Correct. Nothing Illegal about the formation</i>

<b>Posted by Derock</b>
B. T76 and R87 are eligible.

<u>Posted by Mike</u>
<i> Incorrect. #76 is ineligible due to his jersey number. Players must be eligible by position AND number. I realize some youth leagues have exceptions due to limited number of jerseys, but in high school, this is a foul.</i>

<b>Posted by Derock</b>
C. Inelligible receiver down field. 10-yards from previous spot, replay the down (YOUTH--NFHS may be a loss of down)

<u>Posted by Mike</u>
<i> Partly correct. Ineligibles that touch a pass beyond the neutral zone commit offenisve pass interference. Currently under NFHS, OPI is 15 yards and loss of down. Ineligible downfield is 5-yards with NO loss of down.</i>


<u>Second Formation:</u>
T76 G65 C54 G66 T78 R83 R88 R89

The QB lines up 7 yards deep in a shotgun formation.

a. Is there anything illegal about the formation?
b. Who is eligible?

<b>Posted by Derock</b>
A. Formation looks legal to me.

<u>Posted by Mike</u>
<i> Correct. Just because 8 players are on the line doesn't mean it is illegal. Good call.</i>

<b>Posted by Derock</b>
B. T76 and R89 are eligible.

<u>Posted by Mike</u>
<i>Incorrect. #76 is still ineligible. The numbering exception ONLY applies to having 5 players on the line numbers 50-79, not to who is eligible and ineligible to receive forward passes. (Again, youth leagues my offer modifications to the numbering rule).</i>

<b>
2. K kicks to R. While the ball is bouncing towards the R's goal line, it strikes R1 in the leg and continues on its own momentum into R's endzone. R1 recovers the ball in his own endzone. What is the call?</b>

<b>Posted by Derock</b>
A kick that goes to the endzone in youth is extremely rare but I'll give it a shot. Touchback. R gets the ball on their 20 yard line.

<u>Posted by Mike</u>
<i> Good call. Most of the fans and coaches are going to say, "but he touched the ball". Doesn't matter unless it was a new force. I've had to explain this at the youth level once. Rulebook situation that wasn't understood by the coaches (and fans).</i>

<b>
3. 1/10 from A-20. A32 runs the ball 20 yards to the A-40. Several seconds after the ball is dead, A78 blocks and levels B99. Please assess the penalty and state down and distance.</b>

<b>Posted by Derock</b>

I have a dead ball personal foul on A78. The enforcement spot is from the end of the run, 15-yard penalty, Team A has the ball 1/10 from B-45.

<u>Posted by Mike</u>
<i>I'm not sure if you are correct. -- I'm learning. Help me out on this one guys. Won't it be 2/5? A new line-to-gain is not established until all live-ball and dead-ball fouls are penalized, right?</i>

<b>4. Same as #3 except A32 only runs the ball 2 yards to the A-22. </b>


<b>Posted by Derock</b>
Team A has the ball 1/10 from A-37.

<u>Posted by Mike</u>
<i>Incorrect. 2/23 for Team A. Haste in answering may have been at fault for this one</i>

<b>
5. :05 left in the first half. 1/10 from the A-20. A32 runs the ball 4 yards and the clock expires during the down. During the run, A78 held B99 at the A-22. What are the options here?</b>

<b>Posted by Derock</b>
The defense has the option of accepting the penalty and replaying or extending the half by one down OR they can decline the penalty and the half is over. If they accept the penalty it will be 1/18 (penalized from the spot of the foul) from the A-12.

<u>Posted by Mike</u>
<i>Correct. Again, you show SOME knowledge of the rules that the common fan doesn't. I'd be sure to explain to Team B (and B's coach) that the half will end if they decline the penalty.</i>

<b>Posted by Derock</b>
How was that?

<u>Posted by Mike</u>
<i> About average. How long have you been officiating?</i>

<b>Posted by Derock</b>
Do I meet your approval as an official now?

<u>Posted by Mike</u>
<i> I'm not trying to flame you. My approval means nothing. This was an only attempt to show you that officiating without thoughougly understanding the rules can lead to some interesting interpretations. Trust me, the day will come when a coach who knows the rules will call for your head on a plate for an interesting ruling made.</i>

<b>Posted by Derock</b>
Can I now be an accepted member of this elite forum?

<u>Posted by Mike</u>
<i> I doubt that acceptance will ever be forthcoming until the attitude improves. Every official worth his salt should be interested in learning and this is a great place to do it! Once in a great while we get fans who are just venting. Once in even a greater while, we get officials who don't care about the rules. What this forum expects is that people will come humbly here to post plays and situations and accept answers in a positive and constructive way. Most every other official here is willing to admit mistakes and learns a great deal.</i>

<b>Posted by Derock</b>
Doesn't matter because I'll be on the field calling my games just like every other official here will be.

<u>Posted by Mike</u>
<i>Officiating is going to be a frustrating venture until the tone changes and the willingness to learn is presented. I'd encourage you to learn from these guys. I'd hate to see what the officials at mcgriffs forum would do to you! </i> :D

[QUOTE]Originally posted by shocker

Quote:

Originally posted by Derock1986 The third part of your quote says you wonder why someone would come here to learn. Well I came here because there are alot of officials posting here that have alot of knowledge about the game and how to officiate it. If you would read these posts instead of just looking at them, you will learn as well. I trust what alot of these guys say because of the time they put into their preparations. My goal is to go beyond high school ball into NCAA. That's why I want to learn and when you listen you can learn alot. That is fine if you want to do youth games, that's your choice. BUT remember that guys are also here that want to move up so don't give youth game situations in replace of high school situations. I am not here to rag on you, just trying to say what others have tried saying to you in different ways.

Shocker,
If coming here helps you to move up or learn more about officiating then thats great! I am not trying to replace high school game situations with youth situations. Officials from around the world from all levels come here and share their experiences in officiating. If you are pursuing college-level officiating, then you might want to pay more attention to officials here who are at the college level. Me, I'm a youth official, so why would my posts concern you? The common denominator in officiating at all levels is the application of common sense--not rules because rules vary from youth to NFL AND from the east coast to the west coast. Common sense is why I can look the NFL official Mr Blum in the face and say you made a bad call. Common sense is why I can comment or express an opinion on any call made where common sense is a factor. Most of my arguments with the other officials are in the application of common sense along with the rules. If you or any of the other officials do not agree with my posts, then simply say that wouldn't work for me in my situation and toss it aside and forget about it. Perhaps one of the greatest features of using forums is it promotes open, free, and often anonymous communication. I have every intention of exercising my right to post my comments and opinions supported by my experiences as a youth official.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by mikesears
[B]

In the youth league I officiate, this rule was modified. The only requirement is the player must be on the end of the line or uncovered.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by mikesears
[B]Oops, I enforced the penalty in the wrong direction. It should be 2/5 from the A-25.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by mikesears
[B]Oops, enforced the play in the wrong direction. It should be 2/19 from the A-11. Half the distance from the 22 yard line.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by mikesears
[B]Actually Mike, this should be half the distance.

NFHS Rule 10.1.5.

Enforcement of a penalty cannot take the ball more than half the distance from the enforcement spot to the offending team's goal line. If the prescribed penalty is greater than this, the ball is placed halfway from the spot of enforcement to the goal line.

Great post Bob. But believe me; you’re wasting your time. If you go back and read the posts for the last two months you’d be appalled at some of the stuff this guys been laying on us. He says he’s been doing this for 7 years, but it’s quite apparent he had no clue as to any NFHS rule. I gave him a sincere offer to send him study materials, rule books and anything else he might need so he could learn. He ignored my offer and went on to tell us he worked 20 games that weekend (middle of Dec.) and was paid 600 dollars for his efforts. He doesn’t come here to learn. He just wants us to listen to him tell us how great he is and how he demands the “respect” of coaches, players and his adoring fans. I’m not going to waist any more time reading or responding to his posts. Believe me, there’s no redeeming value to any of it.

BTW …glad to see you posting on this board. Despite having this one imposter, we don’t get the wacko nuts and inappropriate postings we’ve seen on the other boards. 99% of the fellows posting here do want to learn and improve.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by mikesears
[B]Who exactly are the guys I'm suppose to be learning from? Are you referring to certain individuals or just all guys who are members of this forum? As far as I'm concerned there is no official here who is above all others where everyone should listen to only him. We all can learn something from EVERY official who posts here. The rule book should dictate the lessons learned and the experiences of officials are only as valuable to others as others perceive them to be.

#3 1/10 from the A-25. Result of the play is a first down. The dead ball penalty happened between the end of the play and the RFP. Assess the yardage and set the chains.

I guess I am mininterpretting NFHS Rule 5-1-2. It states as follows:

A new series of downs is awarded as follows:

After a 1st, 2nd, or 3rd down, a new series of downs shall be awarded only after considering the effect of any act during the down and any dead ball foul.

After a 4th down, a new series of downs shall be awarded only after considering the effect of any act during the down, other than a nonplayer or unsportsmanlike.

In the situation I posted above, it was 1/10. Team A obtained the line-to-gain during the play but commited a dead-ball personal foul. We should consider that act before awarding a new set of downs, right? Or am I misinterpreting this somehow? Help and comments are always appreciated.

Rule 5-1-2 pertains to live ball fouls. Dead ball fouls are penalized from the dead ball spot after 5-1-2 is applied.

That happened in the Tennessee-Oakland game.

Once A reaches the line-to-gain it will be a first down. Then the dead ball penalty will be applied. Then first and 10.

Before 5-1-2 was revised that dead ball penalty would have been enforced from the dead ball spot giving an additional 15 yards to the line-to-gain. In other words, A would get the first and ten. Then a 15-yard penalty. First and 25.

I agree with your interpretation Mike. I think rule 5-1-2 certainly applies to this play but I'm only a "youth" official so what do I know. You may want to wait on the official and final response from Mr Neil, KWH, and others.

Derock :)

I may have to switch sides on this issue just knowing you agree with me :D

PLEASE NOTE THE EMOTICON!

I hope you haven't felt targeted because you are a youth league official.

I'm learning...confused...but learning.

Rule 5-1-2 pertains to when to award a new series of downs and it address both live and dead ball situations.

It reads...

After a first, second or third down, a new series of downs shall be awarded only after considering the effect of any act during the down and any dead-ball foul.

I quote you, "Once A reaches the line-to-gain it will be a first down. Then the dead ball penalty will be applied."

This seems to contradict rule 5-1-2. If I'm wrong, please help me get there.

The NFL aside, I'm still having difficulty with the 1,2, or 3 down situation. I'm thinking out loud here.

When we talk about "a new series" we are talking about "moving the chains" for a new 1/10 situation, correct?

If be in complete agreement if the rule read, "After a 1st, 2nd, or 3rd down, a new series of downs shall be awarded only after considering the effect of any act during the down.(PERIOD) <s>and any dead ball foul.</s>

Let's rephrase using my understanding of the rule (this may be where I am mistaken):

After 1,2, or 3 down, the chains are moved only after considering the action that occured and any fouls that occur during the down (including dead ball fouls).

I guess my question is this: What do we do with the part about "and any dead ball foul"?

Isn't a late hit a dead ball foul? It isn't non-player and it isn't classified as UC. Isn't this an act we should consider before awarding a first down? I'm having difficulty understanding this. What other rules come into play in this situation?

Does anyone have a casebook reference that would further explain this rule?

I'm not trying to be difficult, I'm tyring to firm this up in my own mind.

Thanks!







[Edited by mikesears on Jan 20th, 2003 at 12:39 PM]

NF 5-1-2
 

Mike,

I agree that the wording of NF 5-1-2 could use some cleaning up. I would add to 5-1-2a some clarification that implies that after 1st, 2nd, or 3rd down a new series is awarded after considering any foul activity during the down and any dead ball fouls <b>by B</b>. The way the rule is currently written, one could make the argument that if A makes the line to gain and then commits a dead ball foul that brings the ball back behind the LTG, it would <u>not</u> be a new series. That's false! It would indeed be a new series, but would begin 15 yards back from the dead ball spot.

Re: NF 5-1-2
 

Again, I'm not trying to be difficult but I am curious as to where the support is for this interpretation. Is there a casebook play? Is there another rule that I've overlooked that clarifies this? I'm not looking for subjective opinion, rather I'm looking for confirmation from a definitive source. Casebook, NFHS posting, etc.

I can see a coach ripping me a new one if he reads this rule and interprets it as I have here and I enforce it the other way.

Agreed. I had this so crystal clear in my head but I was always thinking of fouls by B and on 4th down - there are a few case book plays to drive that point home. They neglect (as well as mislabel which rule is being illustrated) the foul by A on 1-3 down after the line to gain has been reached. I am now firmly in the 2nd and 5 camp. If we are to consider the effect of any act during the down as well as any dead ball foul (like the one described) then we can't award a new series because the dead ball act that we will consider moves A back 15 from the end of the run. If he made the A 40 yd line, backing up 15 puts A at the 25, which is 5 yards behind the line to gain. We don't repeat the down because it wasn't a live ball penalty (like holding) so we must proceed to the next down.

I'm not married to this, its just my girlfriend at the moment.

I just sent a note to my high school association for an official ruling on this. If I find out that we enforce the dead ball foul before declaring a first down, it leads to an interesting situation. What happens if A commits a dead ball foul after we request that the chains move and before we declare the ball ready for play? YIKES! Where was the old line-to-gain??

I'm just looking for a ruling with authority.

Thanks!

Guys,

Football Fundamental # 10.
"Whether the next down will be first is determined at the time the ball becomes dead and after considering any act except a nonplayer or unsportsmanship foul which occured DURING(my emphasis) the down."

5-3-1

" when a new series of downs is awarded, the penalties for all fouls )including nonplayer and unsportsmanlike conduct) committed prior to the ready for play signal shall be administered before the line to gain is established."

Therefore, it's first and 10 for A from whereever the ball is after the late hit penalty.

It's all wording.

"A new series of downs is awarded as follows:...considering the effect of any act during the down and any dead-ball foul."

Rule 5-3-1 states "The line to gain is 10 yards in advance of the ball's foremost point when a new series of downs is awarded. When a new series of downs is awarded, the penalties for all fouls (including nonplayer and unsportsmanlike) committed prior to the ready-for-play signal shall be administered before the line to gain is established. The line to gain then remains fixed until the series ends and a new line to gain is established."

In 1997 the rule and the wording of 5-3-1 was revised from "The line to gain is 10 yards in advance of the ball's foremost point when a new series of downs is awarded. The line-to-gain is established at the end of the down in which a new series is awarded and after considering the effect of any act which occurs during the down other than a nonplayer or unsportsmanlike foul. The line to gain then remains fixed until the series ends and a new line to gain is established.

Those changes to 5-1-2 and 5-3-1 were part of a package in 1997 that was established to always give the offense 1st and 10 and no longer 1st and 25 or something more than 10.

There were a number of examples of the new enforcement with most developed around 4th down. Here are appropriate examples to the question posed here from the 1997 Case Book.

Fourth and 2 on B's 25-yard line. A1 is tackled at the 26, short of the line to gain, and B2 then piles on. Ruling The referee shall signal a change of possession by signaling first down toward A's goal. The penalty for B2's dead-ball foul is administered and the line-to-gain equipment then set, making it first and 10 for Team B from their own 13-yard line.

or,

Third and 10 for A from B's 40-yard line. A1 gains 10 yards and is downed on B's 30. A2 taunts B1 during the run. Ruling Since the live-ball action gave A a new series, the line to gain shall be established after A is penalized for A2's unsportsmanlike act, it will be first and 10 for A from B's 45-yard line.

I agree the wording for 5-1-2 is confusing but the substance is you first determine if you have a first down. Then you enforce the appropriate dead ball or unsportsmanlike before setting the chains.

I'm with Steve on this one
 

REPLY: However, Mike's correct that the wording of 5-1-2a does raise some questions.

Who cares where the old line-to-gain was. Now this is when the common sense has to kick into gear and make a ruling. A first down has been declared and the signal given. The chains are now moving but A commits a foul before the chains are reset with the new line to gain. My ruling in this situation would be to penalize A from the new line-to-gain. Eventhough the RFP signal has not been given, the new series of downs has already been awarded.

Oops, see NFHS rule 5-3-1. You see I am learning!

___________________________
<i>But I'm only a youth official so what do I know.
Derock</i>

[Edited by Derock1986 on Jan 20th, 2003 at 04:56 PM]

Derock,
This situation does not rely on common sense. It ONLY relies on the CORRECT understanding of the rules. You, by sheer luck, come up with the right enforcement. 5 years ago the rules were different. It would have been 1st and 25. Was it fair? Did it make "common sense"? Probably not, but that was the rule. Once again you want to officiate ( and I use that term loosely) by the seat of your pants with total disregard for the written rules.

Maybe you can't do this under Fed rules but under NCAA rules it is easy. You know where the succeeding spot is (i.e. where the ball is about to be snapped from). Step off the yardage from there and THEN set the chains. It will still be 1st and 10 though.

I don't know Steve I think the rule is rather clear and I have quoted them from the NFHS rule book to aid in EVERYONE's understanding. I'm just trying to learn like everyone else.

5-1-2-a. On 1-2-3 down, you do not award a new series of downs until considering the effects of any act during the down and any dead-ball foul.

5-1-2-b. On 4th down, you do not award a new series of downs until considering the effects of any act during the down, other than a nonplayer or unsportsmanlike foul.

5-3-1. When a new series of downs is awarded, the penalties for all fouls (including nonplayer and unsportsmanlike) committed prior to the ready-for-play signal shall be administered before the line to gain is established.


_____________________________________
<i>But I'm only a youth official so what do I know.
Derock</i>

Re: NF 5-1-2
 

Careful Bob M, modifying the rules is what got me in hot water!






__________________________________
<i>But I'm only a youth official so what do I know.
Derock</i>

Aboselli, your girlfriend is my sister. Welcome to the family!!!



_____________________________
<i>But I'm only a youth official so what do I know.
Derock</i>

One thing that is vitally important for understanding the rules is to use the proper language as defined in Rule 2 and the Fundamentals.

Rule 5-1-2 talks about the end of the down and 5-3-1 specifies an award of first down occurs only after all penalties have been enforced. The key phrase from Fundamental X.4 is all dead ball fouls are enforced from the succeeding spot.

It would be confusing to set the chains then have an unsportsmanlike or dead ball foul occur before the ready. But by rule they should be set a second time.

Of course, the average coach and most spectators would not understand and just maybe the "common sense" official walks off 15 yards for a first and 25. Unfortunately, the "common sense" official looks good while those who go by the rules are busy explaining to the coach why he did what he did.

But, how often would you get an unsportsmanlike or dead ball personal after the chains are set and before the ready?

I have to disagree with you Mr Ed. Rule 5-1-2 talks about awarding a new series of down. 5-3-1 talks about penalty enforcement AFTER a new series of downs has been awarded and before the ready for play signal. In the situation provided by Mike Sears, a new series of downs had not been awarded and by rule 5-1-2 you must consider the effects of any act during the down AND any dead-ball foul BEFORE you award a new series of downs. The dead ball foul will be enforced from the succeeding spot but the result of the play and dead ball foul brings up 2nd and 5.



___________________________
<i>But I'm only a youth official so what do I know.
Derock</i>

Derock,
I thought you finally got it. You quoted the rules so well.(Almost as well as I did in my previous post). But, alas, you still don't. It's first and ten for A. The dead ball foul occurred after the play is over. A new series was not awarded, It was earned by A's efforts. Therefore they get the first down, and then the foul for the DEAD BALL late hit is enforced. You can't quote rules and then misapply them. Another great call from the Derock rule book.

Oh boy.. When in doubt, crack open the case book and you're sure to find an example somewhere.

Situation 5.3.1 C: 3rd&10 for A from the B-40. A1 gains 10 yards and is downed at the B-30. A2 taunts B1 during the run.
RULING: Since the live ball action gave a a new series, the line to gain will be established after A is penalized for A2's unsportsmanlike act. It will be 1st&10 for A from the B-45.

It makes no difference that this a live ball penalized as a dead ball foul. A dead ball foul for a late hit would be penalized the same way.

Steve, I don't understand what you're talking about.

What do you mean by a new series was earned by A's efforts??? Are you implying that A gets a new series of downs just because they achieved the line to gain?

Rule 5-1-2 says before A is awarded a new series of downs, consider the effects of any act during the down AND any dead ball fouls.


____________________________________
<i>But I'm only a youth official so what do I know.
Derock</i>

Guys.... He's writing his own book , give it up !

Derock, with all due respect, you are incorrectly interpreting the rules. Rule 5-1-2 was newly written with the rule change in 1997 in order to clarify the award of a new series. Rule 5-3-1 as revised clearly states the line-to-gain is established after all penalties have been enforced before the ready for play . Also, apply Fundamental X.4 "Penalty enforcement for any dead ball, nonplayer or unsportsmanlike foul is from the succeeding spot."

On the play in question A had reached the line-to-gain when the down ended. First down. Check my earlier post and it refers to a couple of case book plays to enforce this. You indicate first down. Then you march off 15 yards against A for a dead ball foul from the succeeding spot -- the end of the run. At that point you apply 5-3-1 and establish a new line-to-gain.

I also quoted the previous rule and the big change was no longer did you establish the line-to-gain from the succeeding spot which caused offenses to end up with a new series starting up to 25 yards to the line-to-gain.

I think many of us here are in agreement 5-1-2 does not properly convey its meaning and that happens often throughout the rule book. That is why every chapter has a knowledgeable rule interpreter to address these ambiguities.

<i>Aboselli, your girlfriend is my sister. Welcome to the family!!!</i>

I'm breaking up with her.

Derock.

YES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Thats right, they got the first down and the play ended before the foul. Its the same concept of penalizing from the spot of the foul after a 40 yard gain. They get the yards they earned without the benefit of the foul.

Here,the down was over before the foul was committed. FIRST DOWN. Then enforce the dead ball foul. I think you even stated this in an earlier post.

I give up. I think this guy is doing this on purpose to get us angry. Nobody can really officiate like this.

I'm back in the 1st and 10 from the 25 camp. Sorry I was gone. I'm married to this sucker.

Going over rules can never replace actually working games to stay sharp. When does football start?

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Ed Hickland
[B]You left off a key part of Rule 5-3-1. It starts off by saying <b>When a new series of downs is awarded</b>, the line-to-gain is established after all penalties have been enforced before the ready for play. This rule doesn't specify when a new series of downs is awarded but 5-1-2 does. My understanding is you must apply rule 5-1-2 first before you can apply 5-3-1. If 5-3-1 is contingent upon when a new series of downs is awarded (5-1-2) but you don't clearly understand rule 5-1-2, then how can you effectively apply rule 5-3-1???

AGREE !

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Derock1986
One more time!

This comes directly from the 1997 Case Book. How much more definitive can you get. Rule 5-1-2 was a 1997 Editorial Change and it so states:

Coverage was added to specify how a new series is awarded when enforcement of penalties are involved. The coverage was added to clarify establishing the line to gain and setting the equipment when a new series is gained.

After a first, second or third down, a new series of downs is awarded only after considering the effect of any act during the down and any dead-ball foul. However, on fourth down a new series must be gained without benefit of a penalty for a nonplayer or unsportsmanlike foul.

Once a new series is awarded to either Team A or Team B, the penalties for all fouls, including nonplayer and unsportsmanlike, are administered before the chain and box are set indicating the line to gain. This additional coverage should help clarify the procedure.

Rule 5-1-2b in other words states, for all downs except fourth when you reach the line-to-gain penalties will be applied and the chain set for the new series. But, on a fourth down A must reach the line-to-gain during the down. Any penalties occurring after the down against B will not cause A to be awarded a first down.

The reason for 5-1-2 is Fundamental I-7 states after a distance penalty the ball belongs to the team in possession of the ball at the time of the foul.

Team A failing to make the line-to-gain has turned possession to Team B. Any dead ball, unsportsmanlike or nonplayer fouls cannot cause Team A to maintain possession.

With that Derock, I rest my case.

Mr Neil,
could you please help me understand this rule. If you haven't been following the posts, the situation is stated in an earlier post. The applicable rule is 5-1-2 and 5-3-1.

Thanks Ed and everyone else. I started in 1998 so I was unaware of the actual change to the wording.

There is also a fundamental that states the action during the down must occur during a live ball. I am now back in the 1/10 instead of the 2/5 camp.

I apologize for being so confused. For some reason I was thinking the dead ball personal fouls were somehow enforced differently than dead ball UC fouls. They aren't enforced differently and the casebook clearly gives an example of a UC foul after the line to gain has been reached.

I'm a little embarrassed about my difficulty understanding this rule.



Is there any way to encourage the NF to clean up the wording?



[Edited by mikesears on Jan 21st, 2003 at 06:24 AM]

THIS IS NOT ROCKET SCIENCE!!!
 

I'm amazed that a simple enforcement of dead ball fouls has caused such an uproar. In my 25 years of experience, dead ball fouls (and USCs treated as DB) have ALWAYS been enfored from the suceeding spot. Prior to 1997 (thanks Ed) the chains would be set and then the penalty assesed. The NF changed the enforcement policy (thus changing the order of events) to assess the penalty and then set the chains.

Mike Sears presented two plays that have the same enforcement. The first has the offense reaching the LTG and second they don't. Both plays are enforced the same way! Both DB fouls were assesed from the suceeding spot.

I don't have my rule book with me but I would guess that Rule 10 (Penalty Enforcement) might have a special enforement statement regarding DB penalties.

This is a great example of the necessity of rules knowledge; that, as an official, one needs to combine several rules/intrepretations to properly administer the game.

Read carefully, Derock...
 

REPLY: Derock...I'm not suggesting that <u><b>I</b></u> will change the rule, but I do suggest that the Federation change it to make it consistent with their case book and the principle upon which it's based.

Change the wording....
 

My point in the original point was that I was a bit confused and troubled by the wording of the rule. It sounded like a new series (i.e a first down) wasn't awarded to team A until every act during the down AND all dead ball fouls were considered. So because Team A commited a dead ball foul, they couldn't be awarded a new series until every action that occured was considered (including dead ball fouls). That is a way it could easily be interpreted.

Here is how I arrived at my initial conclusion:

Rule 5-1-1:
Each awarded first down starts a new series of first downs.
I translated this as "When a team obtains a first down, it begins a new set of four downs.

Rule 5-1-2:
A new series (see 5-1-1) is awarded as follows:
After a first,second, or third down, a new series of downs shall be awarded ONLY AFTER considering the effect of any act during the down <b><u>and any dead ball foul</u></b>.

Here is how I translated it in my own words (intially)

On downs 1-3, all acts commited during the down and after the down are taking into consideration before awarding a team a first down. It is the dead ball stuff that is confusing by the way the rule is worded, (can we agree this is confusing if we simply read the words)?

However, casebook play 5.3.1C gives an example of a UC foul (penalized like a dead ball foul) where the ruling is different than my line of thinking and a football fundamental goes against it as well.

I would edit the rule as follows:

A new series (see 5-1-1) is awarded as follows:
After a first,second, or third down, a new series of downs shall be awarded ONLY AFTER considering the effect of any act during the down. <b>A dead ball foul may also advance the ball beyond the line to gain.</b>

I might further put football fundamental II.2 somewhere in this rule. "Whether the next down will be first is determined at the time the ball becomes dead and after considering any act, except nonplayer and unsportsmanlike foul, which occured <b>during</b> (emphasis mine) the down."

I'd further change rule 5-3-1 to say (words added are in bold print):

The line to gain is 10 yards in advance of the ball's foremost point when a new series of downs is awarded. When a new series of downs is awarded, all <b>dead ball</b> fouls committed prior to the ready-for-play signal shall be administered before the line-to-gain is established. The line to gain then remains fixed until the series ends and a new series is awarded.

Sorry for the rambling post. Hope everyone can follow me. I am now firmly in the 1/10 camp (unless my High School Association Interpretter tells me something different :) )

Re: Change the wording....
 

I'm like a one armed paper hanger here without my rule book but let me carry on:

Rule 5-1-1:
Each awarded first down starts a new series of first downs.
I translated this as "When a team obtains a first down, it begins a new set of four downs.

Rule 5-1-2:
A new series (see 5-1-1) is awarded as follows:
After a first,second, or third down, a new series of downs shall be awarded ONLY AFTER considering the effect of any act during the down <b><u>and any dead ball foul</u></b>.

Rule 5-1-1 is very staight forward, Team A, in the sample play, obtained (was awarded)a first down. They advanced the ball beyond the LTG. Rule 5-1-2 seems to talk about plays in which A does NOT reach the LTG during the play. (Why fourth down is not included I don't know!) In which case the acceptance or declination of any live or dead ball penalties may or may not result in a first down (new series).

Suppose that B commited the DB foul, we have no problem advancing the ball 15 yards, 1/10 for A. I don't see any difference in enforcement if A commits the foul (1/10 A 15 yards behind the basic spot).

This play, prior to 1997, would have been enforced the same as today. The only difference is that prior to '97 it would be 1/25; today it is 1/10.

I agree with you Mike that the language of the rule is suspect (in particular the word "any" refering to dead ball fouls). I have no doubt, however, that educated, experienced officials will enforce this siuation correctly despite the vague rule wording.

Rule 5-2-1 tells us when a first down is awarded and that is only after considering any act during the down and any dead ball foul. Seems they were only thinking about B fouls and not A DB fouls. Just because they get a first down during the play doesn't mean they automatically get a first and 10.

1/10 Team A's ball on the A-20. A32 runs for 15 to the A-35. A78 is called for holding at the A-36. Down and distance after the penalty? 2 and 5 at the A-25, right?

The rule says we don't award a new series until we consider the hold (or action during the down).

Same situation, except instead of holding, we have a DB personal foul.

The rule again seems to say we don't award a new series until we consider the dead ball foul.

See my confusion here? The rule seems to indicate that dead ball fouls are to be treated BEFORE the awarding of a first down when in fact, they are treated AFTER awarding the first down but before the line to gain is established.

I'm trying to explain WHAT I read in this rule. I'm not trying to be difficult.

Let me try at this! :-)

From everything that I have read of you guys quoting the example from Mikes post

1/10 Team A's ball on the A-20. A32 runs for 15 to the A-35. A78 is called for holding at the A-36. Down and distance after the penalty? 2 and 5 at the A-25
Would be correct
But if you change it to where A32 runs for 25 to the A-45
A78 is called for holding and then there is a dead ball personal foul on A also. Wouldn't it then be 1/25 from the A-20

Or am I just really confused

LOL , yes you're a little confused . But don't worry about it Poosh . I been doing this for three years now and I'm still very confused 8^) . Here's how I look at this 1/10 bussness . The only time you're going to have a 1/25 is when you have give A a 1/10 ,then set the chains blow the ready and then A commits a dead ball foul . If someone can come up with another example I'd love to hear it .

Re: Change the wording....
 

I'll wait to see what your high school interpreter has to say. As soon as you find out, please update this post. Thanks!


__________________________________
<i>But I'm only a youth official so what do I know.
Derock</i>

The chances of a having an unsportsmanlike or a dead ball personal after the ready-for-play and before the snap are highly unlikely since the time between the ready and the snap cannot be by rule more than 25 seconds.

You can and will get 1st and 15 from a false start but major penalties are rare in that 25 second interval.

Most likely would be a defensive guy trying to disrupt the QB's signals by yelling some of his own. USC, but that would be on the D.

I know - the guard could yell out a name at the defensive man across from him which engenders ill will on the basis of nationality, race, color and/or creed. There's a 15 yarder, baby!

[Edited by ABoselli on Jan 22nd, 2003 at 10:26 PM]

I was going to suggest that a coach berating an official could get a quick 15 yards for the A team in this 25 second, dead ball situation, but most coaches agree with our calls and see us as role models for the youngsters!

Highly unlikely!!