Stopping the clock

[White hat9]

OK, I'm new here so if this topic has been discussed, I apologize.

A situation occured in a playoff game I attended but did not work. I'll post the question without telling what the crew did at this point because I want responses based on interpretation, not people trying to back the crew, although about half the officials I talk to say they did it right, and half say they did it wrong. I find no support in the NFHS rule book to say one way or the other.

The question is this, when is the clock considered stopped after a requested time out?

Actual play:

Team A has the ball, down 7, in last seconds of the game with one time out left. QB rolls right. Ref follows play. QB is sacked and turns quickly to ask for the TO. Ref, by coincidence of his positioning, has QB and game clock in same line of sight and sees the request is given with tenths of a second on the clock, but of course they tick off before he can turn, give signal and get the clock stopped.

Like most high schools, there is only one clock and it's behind one end zone. If the team had been going the other way, the Ref would nothave been able to see the TO and clock.

At no other time do we consider the time elapsed in the delay of request to signal to stoppage an issue.

But if an incomplete pass hits the ground and an official knows there was time left, I think we'd agree that another play should be awarded. Is this the same sort of thing?

Is the game over?

[Derock1986]

Originally posted by White hat9


has QB and game clock in same line of sight and sees the request is given with tenths of a second on the clock.

As you described, the Ref sees time remaining after the TO request was made.

Ruling should have been Team A has a time out with however much time remaining.

If the clock expires as the Ref is signaling time out, then 1 second should be added back to the clock.

[HighSchoolWhiteHat]

where the 1 second added came from I don't know.
if the qb turns to the white hat and calls a time out the white out gives the signal. the clock official should be watching for this signal on the field anyway because it can come from any official. the white hat does not have to turn around to face the booth to signal time out.also there is a clock on the field also. so the white hat should go to his line judge(who should have the clock in a 4 or 5 man game) and ask him if time expired.

if the white hat saw the clock and it had under 1 second on it and he thinks the qb got the time out to him before time expired, he could also have the game extended to one more down and explain his reason to each coach.(I can bet one coach you be hapopy and another pissed)

at no time should a white hat turn around and look at the clock to see if it ran out before the qb got the time out call to him.

now to answer your question about this call. I would have to say since the hat saw time left on the clock then we play one more down.

[JMN]

If I were the R, GAME OVER!

My opinion is that taking the TO request from a player and giving the signal precedes stopping the clock. If A didn't manage their time effectively, then that's tough luck at such a critical time.

And the 1 second suggestion. Why award A another play (possibly game winning) just because it was a close call? Doesn't that provide A with an advantage?

Our association had a similar play. About :01 seconds remaining, clock stopped for 1st down. A gets his team to the line so that he can snap the ball and spike it to stop the clock and line up for a game winning field goal. The R whistles ready for play as the ball is snapped. The QB spikes the ball. The U had the clock. The crew (after much deliberation) called "game over" to a chorus of boos! The ruling from them, "the QB was not able to snap and spike the ball before the time elapsed"! What's your call?

p.s. And please let's not get into how some clocks operate, the timer, etc.

[Derock1986]

Originally posted by JMN
If I were the R, GAME OVER!

And the 1 second suggestion. Why award A another play (possibly game winning) just because it was a close call? Doesn't that provide A with an advantage?

The way he described the play, the Ref was looking at the clock, saw time was remaining when A signaled for a time out. If the clock expired as the R blew his whistle or gave the signal to stop the clock, then A should be given 1 second OR given 1 play.

"the QB was not able to snap and spike the ball before the time elapsed"! What's your call?

p.s. And please let's not get into how some clocks operate, the timer, etc.

There is no way a QB can snap the ball, step from underneath the center, and spike the ball in 1 second. I would think there would have to be at least 3 seconds on the clock at the snap for any possibility of another play.

[JMN]

Rock,

My point was that regardless of the fact that the player requested the time out with a fraction of a second left, the time out is not granted until the Ref blows his whistle and signals. We have all called numerous time outs and it's taken the clock 1-3 seconds to stop. The fact that the Ref happened to see some time on the clock when the player asked for the time out is not material to me. That is part of the game! But, your fabrication of putting 1 second on the clock or awarding A another play isn't right. No foundation!


I agree with you on the spike. No way he can snap and spike in a second.

[HighSchoolWhiteHat]

ok first of all there is a very good chance a qb can get the snap and spike the ball in under 1 second. .09 .08 .07 .06 .05 .04 .03 .02 .01 .00


second- if thers .04 left on the clock when the qb calls it he gets another play. time did not expire.

now spiking the ball would be very hard with 1 second left but its possible to do. the clock stops as soon as the ball hits the ground.


most youth leagues and high school field don't have clocks with tenths of a second on them but don not say its not possible to get the play off. your linejudge has a clock with tenths of seconds on it.

i guess you guys are thinking the best thing to do is run the clock out and end the game saying theres no time left since most people also don't think you can get a play off. yet it is possible to get this play off and still get another chance.

and to answer the question posted, there is time left when the white hat gets the time out call from the qb. they get another try....

if anyone is a b ball ref in here they can tell you that its not impossible to get the ball TAKE A DRIBBLE (this being the key word)and shot with 1 second left.


thanks,

[HighSchoolWhiteHat]

JMN<

right call on your play, with .01 left the clock expires as soon as the qb gets the ball. no way he can get it and spike it also in .01 seconds. I just don't see why this coach didn't pass or run the ball.hell superman couldn't take a snap and spike in under.01 seconds.

thanks

[Derock1986]

Originally posted by HighSchoolWhiteHat
ok first of all there is a very good chance a qb can get the snap and spike the ball in under 1 second. .09 .08 .07 .06 .05 .04 .03 .02 .01 .00


second- if thers .04 left on the clock when the qb calls it he gets another play. time did not expire.

now spiking the ball would be very hard with 1 second left but its possible to do. the clock stops as soon as the ball hits the ground.


most youth leagues and high school field don't have clocks with tenths of a second on them but don not say its not possible to get the play off. your linejudge has a clock with tenths of seconds on it.

i guess you guys are thinking the best thing to do is run the clock out and end the game saying theres no time left since most people also don't think you can get a play off. yet it is possible to get this play off and still get another chance.

and to answer the question posted, there is time left when the white hat gets the time out call from the qb. they get another try....

if anyone is a b ball ref in here they can tell you that its not impossible to get the ball TAKE A DRIBBLE (this being the key word)and shot with 1 second left.


thanks,

BBall Refs I would like to here your response to this one. Take the ball, DRIBBLE, then shoot in 1 second? Catch and shoot--yes but dribble--I doubt it.

To receive the snap and take 1 step backwards will take at least 1 second. The spike must be a forward pass immediately in the ground. I just don't see how a spike can be performed in LESS than a second. I still say not possible.

[HighSchoolWhiteHat]

derock have you ever worked a game with a clock that had tenths of seconds on it?


i am also a b ball official and have seen players take a pass with 1 second left dribble once and shoot before the buzzer goes off.

now in football you don't have the buzzer but its possible to get a play off and spike with 1 second. have i ever seen it in football no, because what coach would try it.

[JMN]

HSWH,

This isn't basketball so at least with most of my schools, we're not dealing with a sub 1 second clock.

I'm saying that most kids wouldn't be able to get the ball snapped and legally spiked in a second. Maybe if they're the home team and it's their clock operator (but let's not go there).

So, I guess here's the question. In timing the game, is the time out "official" when the player REQUESTS it or when it is GRANTED to him by an official? I think this is where the disagreement lies. My interpretation of the rules is that the time out (clock stopped) when the official GRANTS the time out to the team. And, to do this takes some time to administer.

I guess WhiteHat9 was right about 50% agreeing with the call and 50% disagreeing.

[Derock1986]

Originally posted by JMN
Rock,

My point was that regardless of the fact that the player requested the time out with a fraction of a second left, the time out is not granted until the Ref blows his whistle and signals. We have all called numerous time outs and it's taken the clock 1-3 seconds to stop. The fact that the Ref happened to see some time on the clock when the player asked for the time out is not material to me. That is part of the game! But, your fabrication of putting 1 second on the clock or awarding A another play isn't right. No foundation!


I agree with you on the spike. No way he can snap and spike in a second.

Thats your call JMN. My call is A gets another play because I saw A signal for time out with time remaining. I keep the official time in my games and I always stop the clock THEN blow my whistle and signal time out. When seconds become critical, why cheat the team out of valuable seconds just so you can blow your whistle and give a signal. If you're not holding the clock, then you should have your whistle in your mouth anticipating the time out request. You're killing the team if you're not in position to grant their time out as soon as they request it.

A quickly requests time out. JMN acknowledges the time out request and it is valid--JMN then puts his whistle in his mouth, blows it, and waves his arms, then the clock stops. A just lost 2 seconds. Probably OK in the normal course of the game but not when theres 10 seconds or less remaining in a close game.

[ABoselli]

Looks like its 50/50 here, too.

If I'm the R and I can plainly see 1 second left when he calls it, I give him the 1 second. I think an R has to be conscious of the fact that this scenario is probably coming with the clock winding down and a potential TO being called. Just like if there's a pass or run for a first down, be ready to kill it as everyone in the place will look up at the clock the instant they hear the whistle. During the toss, I tell the captains that if they want a TO, they should find one of us and say it to us facing us - not the silent T with the hands, either. This is because in a tight game at the end of either half, the entire sideline is screaming "TIME OUT!!" and if the play ended near the sideline, I don't want a TO called because the coach yelled it.

In basketball, isn't there a rule that if there's less and .4 seconds, there can only be a tip in after the inbounds pass, anything over that, play on? Maybe it's just NCAA's.

[Derock1986]

Originally posted by HighSchoolWhiteHat
derock have you ever worked a game with a clock that had tenths of seconds on it?


i am also a b ball official and have seen players take a pass with 1 second left dribble once and shoot before the buzzer goes off.

now in football you don't have the buzzer but its possible to get a play off and spike with 1 second. have i ever seen it in football no, because what coach would try it.

I have never seen an official football clock with tenths of a second. Does the NFL use tenths of a second? I don't use tenths of a second in my games.

[HighSchoolWhiteHat]

my thought on this play was that I know this time out call is coming so I want to be ready to call it as soon as a player asked for it. When he asks for it I blow and give the time out signal. if im looking at the clock when I signal time out and I see time left, he gets that time. he can run another play.


derock, why do you as a ref have the clock? do some associations have their ref's running a clock also just like the linesmen and linejudge 3 man games??