Sugar Bowl Safety

[jchamp]

Originally Posted by Hooah30

Can anyone support the call?

In the youth leagues that I've called in my brief experience, I've been instructed to err on the side of player safety, that is, when the back had been pushed back several yards on the initial hit, kill the play with the whistle. I don't know if the rule regarding forward progress is different, but college officials tend to allow more second opportunities, and it makes for a more exciting game.
Players and coaches all know if you are driven back, you get to keep what you got in the first place, but if you run forward again, however slightly, then you reset from where you've been moved back to. He had to know he was behind the goal line and he made a decision to keep working instead of just giving up and taking his no-gain. That was just a bone-headed play by an otherwise talented RB and he got caught.
Moral of the story--your goal line is the most evil mark on the field, don't mess with it!

[mbyron]

Here's the video: safety starts at 1:50.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by wisref2

didn't see the play - but keep this mind. Was he trying to gain yardage? If you want the right to gain yards, you have to accept the responsibility of losing yardage or fumbling.

Originally Posted by Hooah30

Certainly the whistle doesn't make the play day... Just wondering why they wear them around their neck?

The top statement is the point. If he would have just gone down then the play would have not been a safety. But when players often try to fight for extra yardage and they get away from these kinds of tackles, you let the play continue. Now if the one tackler had brought him down I agree without a question this is not a safety. But the player broke away and had 2 or 3 other players ultimately tackle him. This is not youth ball, these are great athletes. How many great plays do we see on SportsCenter when we think a player is down and they run for a TD or make big yardage after the first contact? The player has to know where he is on the field and stop fighting for yards. A similar thing happen earlier in the game when it appeared an Arkansas player could have been stopped, but was fighting for more yards and had the ball stripped out of his hand. If you are stopped, go down. When you continue to fight for yards, you are responsible for what happens after that until you are ruled to be truly stopped.

Peace

[Eastshire]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

The top statement is the point. If he would have just gone down then the play would have not been a safety. But when players often try to fight for extra yardage and they get away from these kinds of tackles, you let the play continue. Now if the one tackler had brought him down I agree without a question this is not a safety. But the player broke away and had 2 or 3 other players ultimately tackle him. This is not youth ball, these are great athletes. How many great plays do we see on SportsCenter when we think a player is down and they run for a TD or make big yardage after the first contact? The player has to know where he is on the field and stop fighting for yards. A similar thing happen earlier in the game when it appeared an Arkansas player could have been stopped, but was fighting for more yards and had the ball stripped out of his hand. If you are stopped, go down. When you continue to fight for yards, you are responsible for what happens after that until you are ruled to be truly stopped.

Peace

This can't be overstated: as the RB don't put yourself in this position and you don't have to worry about it.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

The top statement is the point. If he would have just gone down then the play would have not been a safety. But when players often try to fight for extra yardage and they get away from these kinds of tackles, you let the play continue. Now if the one tackler had brought him down I agree without a question this is not a safety. But the player broke away and had 2 or 3 other players ultimately tackle him. This is not youth ball, these are great athletes. How many great plays do we see on SportsCenter when we think a player is down and they run for a TD or make big yardage after the first contact? The player has to know where he is on the field and stop fighting for yards. A similar thing happen earlier in the game when it appeared an Arkansas player could have been stopped, but was fighting for more yards and had the ball stripped out of his hand. If you are stopped, go down. When you continue to fight for yards, you are responsible for what happens after that until you are ruled to be truly stopped.

Peace

I'm not sure anyone would've blinked at a loss of yardage if this happened at midfield. Why should the end zone be any different? If he broke the tackle (and he did), then I'll let him gain yards, but I'll also let him lose yards and/or fumble.

I like the window sill analogy, but I don't think it applies here since the tackle was broken.

[Eastshire]

Originally Posted by RichMSN

I'm not sure anyone would've blinked at a loss of yardage if this happened at midfield. Why should the end zone be any different? If he broke the tackle (and he did), then I'll let him gain yards, but I'll also let him lose yards and/or fumble.

I like the window sill analogy, but I don't think it applies here since the tackle was broken.

I would have, especially after watching the slow motion replay they showed during the game. He didn't break the tackle, the defender still had him by the legs when the second group of defenders engaged him.

I think it was a defensible, but ultimately wrong, call (but as I said, I'm biased).

I also thought the wing hurt himself by conferring with the R. What possible information does the R have that affects the call on forward momentum? It looked like the wing was confused as to what happened.

[JasonTX]

Do any of you remember the Super Bowl play that Carey had? He had a play where he was "close" to shutting down but the QB was able to break free. My comments here may not apply to the play in question but just regarding forward progress in general. I look at forward progress as a person trying to climb out of a window. There is an area where you aren't in the house but you also aren't out of the house, you are on the window sill. When you are in that area you can still go back in or can go all the way out. Forward progress is similar in the way that I don't think we rule the runner down when he is moved back 6 inches, I think we wait to see if they push him back further. As long as you judge the runner to still be on the "sill" the ball is still live. For this play, each of us has to determine if that runner was on the "sill" when he escaped.

[Mike L]

I have to admit I would have had a whistle before the "breakaway" and had progress at the 2. Being driven back 4 yds is beyond enough for me to say progress is stopped. Then again, I'm not a bowl official either.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Mike L

I have to admit I would have had a whistle before the "breakaway" and had progress at the 2. Being driven back 4 yds is beyond enough for me to say progress is stopped. Then again, I'm not a bowl official either.

I would have also probably ruled the play down in the field of play as well, but I doubt I would have had a whistle. But that is why it is a judgment call and has nothing to do with the officials and their stature. We all just do not have the same judgment.

Peace

[Mike L]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I would have also probably ruled the play down in the field of play as well, but I doubt I would have had a whistle.

Why not?

[Andy]

Judgement is judgement. There is the answer to your question.

I do not officiate football, but other sports and have learned that judgement is one thing that cannot be taught. We can teach rules and positioning on the field or court, mechanics, etc., but judgement is judgement. It's prretty safe to say that to get to the level of calling a BCS bowl game, those officials have shown good judgement in their careers.

You can't put a basis for judgement in black and white...much like the flag for the excessive celebration penalty in the Pinstripe bowl as was discussed here at some length. In the calling officials judgement, what that player did was a foul and earned a flag.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Mike L

Why not?

I would not want to give a cheap safety. But the player in question tried to get away and did, so I would have doubted the decision for sure. Again, the player goes down this is not an issue.

Peace

[Mike L]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I would have also probably ruled the play down in the field of play as well, but I doubt I would have had a whistle. But that is why it is a judgment call and has nothing to do with the officials and their stature. We all just do not have the same judgment.

Peace

I'm not trying to tell you what to do, I'm still trying to understand this statement. In it you state you probably would have ruled progress stopped but would not have a whistle. So how far back do you allow them to be pushed before you blow the whistle? Do they actually have to be tackled? How do you indicate you have progressed stopped and the ball is now dead to everyone there that is the judgement call you are making? Or do you ever blow the whistle because they are just supposed to figure it out and then see where you happend to be standing?

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Mike L

I'm not trying to tell you what to do, I'm still trying to understand this statement. In it you state you probably would have ruled progress stopped but would not have a whistle. So how far back do you allow them to be pushed before you blow the whistle? Do they actually have to be tackled? How do you indicate you have progressed stopped and the ball is now dead to everyone there that is the judgement call you are making? Or do you ever blow the whistle because they are just supposed to figure it out and then see where you happend to be standing?

Then do this, chalk it up to I do not feel the whistle is that important and your life apparently depends on if you hit the whistle or not. If I have progress stopped at a place, I mark that spot where FP is stopped in my judgment. You need a whistle to do that? So if the whistle is not blown when you like I cannot mark the spot I have judged at that place whether it is a safety or a TD, the whistle has to be blown?

Peace

[ajmc]

What struck me as most significant about this play, was that the Referee and Wing official, immediately got together to confirm what each had seen and only then was a decision made and a non-hesitant signal given.

Apparently, both agreed that the play was still alive when the ball was fumbled. As both seemed to be in proper position to make a call (from opposite directions) their confirming each other's perspective seems like excellent and appropriate mechanics.