Sugar Bowl Safety

[Eastshire]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

The top statement is the point. If he would have just gone down then the play would have not been a safety. But when players often try to fight for extra yardage and they get away from these kinds of tackles, you let the play continue. Now if the one tackler had brought him down I agree without a question this is not a safety. But the player broke away and had 2 or 3 other players ultimately tackle him. This is not youth ball, these are great athletes. How many great plays do we see on SportsCenter when we think a player is down and they run for a TD or make big yardage after the first contact? The player has to know where he is on the field and stop fighting for yards. A similar thing happen earlier in the game when it appeared an Arkansas player could have been stopped, but was fighting for more yards and had the ball stripped out of his hand. If you are stopped, go down. When you continue to fight for yards, you are responsible for what happens after that until you are ruled to be truly stopped.

Peace

This can't be overstated: as the RB don't put yourself in this position and you don't have to worry about it.

[JasonTX]

Do any of you remember the Super Bowl play that Carey had? He had a play where he was "close" to shutting down but the QB was able to break free. My comments here may not apply to the play in question but just regarding forward progress in general. I look at forward progress as a person trying to climb out of a window. There is an area where you aren't in the house but you also aren't out of the house, you are on the window sill. When you are in that area you can still go back in or can go all the way out. Forward progress is similar in the way that I don't think we rule the runner down when he is moved back 6 inches, I think we wait to see if they push him back further. As long as you judge the runner to still be on the "sill" the ball is still live. For this play, each of us has to determine if that runner was on the "sill" when he escaped.

[Mike L]

I have to admit I would have had a whistle before the "breakaway" and had progress at the 2. Being driven back 4 yds is beyond enough for me to say progress is stopped. Then again, I'm not a bowl official either.

[ajmc]

What struck me as most significant about this play, was that the Referee and Wing official, immediately got together to confirm what each had seen and only then was a decision made and a non-hesitant signal given.

Apparently, both agreed that the play was still alive when the ball was fumbled. As both seemed to be in proper position to make a call (from opposite directions) their confirming each other's perspective seems like excellent and appropriate mechanics.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Mike L

I have to admit I would have had a whistle before the "breakaway" and had progress at the 2. Being driven back 4 yds is beyond enough for me to say progress is stopped. Then again, I'm not a bowl official either.

I would have also probably ruled the play down in the field of play as well, but I doubt I would have had a whistle. But that is why it is a judgment call and has nothing to do with the officials and their stature. We all just do not have the same judgment.

Peace

[Hooah30]

Originally Posted by mbyron

100% official's judgment. The covering official judged that the back broke free of the tackler in the EZ.

No rule was misapplied in the play. If you want to argue judgment, I'm sure you can find a fan site to entertain you.

If I hadn't been coaching and officiating high school football for almost 20 years perhaps a fan site would be more proper... Since I don't officiate or coach college, I thought and still do think my question has merit.

I am anxious for you to answer my question... When is forward progress stopped. Do you people really expect a player to give himself up?

Keep in my mind the following two things...
1. Giving yourself up is not a natural instinct... Youth football to the pros... Giving up in that situation is to allow the defenders to collapse you... Ever had that happen? I thought that is why officials carried whistles... If not why not just let every play end with a person on the ground or out of play then spot the ball accordingly?

2. Given that there was no indication that the play became dead, should the back assume he was spotted outside the end zone?

The point I am stuck on is officials judgement... That is an easy out but there has to be some basis for that judgement and the answer that as long as the runner is fighting for yards is not the right answer. It simply is not. At some point an official must decide when a player's progress has been halted. If 5 yards of being driven backwards is not enough, pray tell what is? Is it 6, 7, 50 yards?

[Hooah30]

Originally Posted by JasonTX

Do any of you remember the Super Bowl play that Carey had? He had a play where he was "close" to shutting down but the QB was able to break free. My comments here may not apply to the play in question but just regarding forward progress in general. I look at forward progress as a person trying to climb out of a window. There is an area where you aren't in the house but you also aren't out of the house, you are on the window sill. When you are in that area you can still go back in or can go all the way out. Forward progress is similar in the way that I don't think we rule the runner down when he is moved back 6 inches, I think we wait to see if they push him back further. As long as you judge the runner to still be on the "sill" the ball is still live. For this play, each of us has to determine if that runner was on the "sill" when he escaped.

Good explanation Jason. Based on that definition I would say the runner was on the commode by the time the first tackler fell of of him.

[Mike L]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I would have also probably ruled the play down in the field of play as well, but I doubt I would have had a whistle.

Why not?

[Andy]

Judgement is judgement. There is the answer to your question.

I do not officiate football, but other sports and have learned that judgement is one thing that cannot be taught. We can teach rules and positioning on the field or court, mechanics, etc., but judgement is judgement. It's prretty safe to say that to get to the level of calling a BCS bowl game, those officials have shown good judgement in their careers.

You can't put a basis for judgement in black and white...much like the flag for the excessive celebration penalty in the Pinstripe bowl as was discussed here at some length. In the calling officials judgement, what that player did was a foul and earned a flag.

[Andy]

Originally Posted by ajmc

What struck me as most significant about this play, was that the Referee and Wing official, immediately got together to confirm what each had seen and only then was a decision made and a non-hesitant signal given.

Apparently, both agreed that the play was still alive when the ball was fumbled. As both seemed to be in proper position to make a call (from opposite directions) their confirming each other's perspective seems like excellent and appropriate mechanics.

I agree that the two of them getting together to discuss what they saw was excellent and looked good as officials.

My question, since I am not a football official, is what would happen if the two of them had disagreed? Since there was no whistle to stop the play, what if the Wing came in and said that he had forward progress stopped at the 2, and the Referee said, no, I've got a safety? Do you just discuss it and come to a decision? It seems like this would happen more often in football with two or more officials looking at the same play from different angles.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Hooah30

1. Giving yourself up is not a natural instinct... Youth football to the pros... Giving up in that situation is to allow the defenders to collapse you... Ever had that happen? I thought that is why officials carried whistles... If not why not just let every play end with a person on the ground or out of play then spot the ball accordingly?

This has nothing to do with a natural instinct. If you go down and realize the play is over, then you cannot worry about what else will be called. And officials carry whistles to rule they have stopped the play, which is why I said a similar play in the situation where an Arkansas player would have just went down he would not have been ruled he fumbled the ball.

Originally Posted by Hooah30

2. Given that there was no indication that the play became dead, should the back assume he was spotted outside the end zone?

The player should realize where he is on the field and stop trying to get away. Maybe you have not been coaching or officiating in 20 years but I see players all the time go down when they are in certain areas of the field or the game is in a critical moment. Heck 20 years ago our coach told us to do that when he had a lead to not fumble the football.

Originally Posted by Hooah30

The point I am stuck on is officials judgement... That is an easy out but there has to be some basis for that judgement and the answer that as long as the runner is fighting for yards is not the right answer. It simply is not. At some point an official must decide when a player's progress has been halted. If 5 yards of being driven backwards is not enough, pray tell what is? Is it 6, 7, 50 yards?

Well what else do you want? Do you want anytime a player is pushed back to be a dead play. So that would mean that any second effort play would result in a play being over and many first downs or extra yardage plays would not happen. And it is not about going backwards, is about being in control of the ball carrier. It is arguable that he was not in control and he did get away. You do not have to agree and I do not have to agree, but it was clear that one player was not able to bring that player to the ground. And when the ball carrier was grasped he was also fighting to get away. You allow that to happen on some level, whether that applied here or the play was over is always going to be in the judgment of the officials on the game. It is easy to sit here and say what we should do, but I see these plays all the time and the runner gets away. You cannot have it both ways.

Peace

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Mike L

Why not?

I would not want to give a cheap safety. But the player in question tried to get away and did, so I would have doubted the decision for sure. Again, the player goes down this is not an issue.

Peace

[JugglingReferee]

I've got progress stopped in the field of play. Not a safety.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Andy

I agree that the two of them getting together to discuss what they saw was excellent and looked good as officials.

My question, since I am not a football official, is what would happen if the two of them had disagreed? Since there was no whistle to stop the play, what if the Wing came in and said that he had forward progress stopped at the 2, and the Referee said, no, I've got a safety? Do you just discuss it and come to a decision? It seems like this would happen more often in football with two or more officials looking at the same play from different angles.

The wing has forward progress, the Referee does not. So who cares if they disagree, the Referee cannot rule on a play they are not in position to make. I am sure the Referee gave information to the wing as to if he eventually got away. And one thing non-football officials need to understand, the whistle means little or nothing to this play. There are plays that do not have a whistle at all, somehow everyone knows the play is over.

Peace

[JasonTX]

Originally Posted by Andy

I agree that the two of them getting together to discuss what they saw was excellent and looked good as officials.

My question, since I am not a football official, is what would happen if the two of them had disagreed? Since there was no whistle to stop the play, what if the Wing came in and said that he had forward progress stopped at the 2, and the Referee said, no, I've got a safety? Do you just discuss it and come to a decision? It seems like this would happen more often in football with two or more officials looking at the same play from different angles.

Part of the rule includes this statement: " When in question, forward progress is stopped." The wing is the primary official for ruling forward progress on this play.