NFHS - horse collar rule question

[jjb]

on a running play A1 is being horse collared at B's 40 yard line and the ball comes loose. The ball is recovered by:
A2 on B's 35
A2 on B's 45
B1 on B's 35
B1 on B's 45

Where is the enforcement spot ?

( I'm new here and my chapter didn't hand the rules/case booklets out yet )

Thanks in advance

[FTVMartin]

the basic spot for all of these is the end of the run (B40) which you beanbagged when the ball came out. In all scenarios, the spot of enforcement is the B40. A keeps the ball.

[Canned Heat]

Correct me if I'm wrong....and I'm sure someone will if I'm not reading you right.

Am I right in assuming that the ball carrier was taken down after loss of posession..? I.E.:the ball came out in the process of the HC tackle and the foul was completed after the loss of posession by the runner....?

If the runner is not down yet via tackle by horse collar...now the ball comes out and there's a live ball fumble...if he's not taken down to the ground by the HC...there's no foul. The act of the horse collar foul isn't complete until the runner is taken down by the action....now revised to be forward, sideways, or backwards....per the new ruling once the tackler is inside the back or sides of the collar or pads. If the ball comes out prior to the runner being down, there's got to be a foul for something other than the horse collar (PF/unnecessary roughness as the runner is no longer a runner due to loss of posession) or no foul if the runner (or former runner after loss of posession) is not taken to the ground by the act of the HC tackle. We discussed this a while back regarding a HC tackle while crossing the goalline and whether the runner is still a runner because the play is dead once the ball crosses the goal line and whether it's a dead ball PF or still considered an HC..

If someone is hanging on by the inside of the jersey collar or shoulder pads and slips off, or the runner isn't taken down, or finished off by a player (B2)....there should be no foul.

9-4-3k:
"No Player or Nonplayer Shall: Grab the inside back or side collar of the shoulder pads or jersey of the runner and subsequently pull that opponent to the ground."


I'd like to see some other replies here....

[HLin NC]

if he's not taken down to the ground by the HC...there's no foul.

Correct

If the ball comes out prior to the runner being down, there's got to be a foul for something other than the horse collar (PF/unnecessary roughness as the runner is no longer a runner due to loss of posession)

Incorrect- this is what the change addressed for 2010. Wording was changed to "opponent".

We discussed this a while back regarding a HC tackle while crossing the goalline and whether the runner is still a runner because the play is dead once the ball crosses the goal line and whether it's a dead ball PF or still considered an HC..

Last year's debate, rule change clarifies this to be a HC foul for 2010.

See pg. 89-90 in rules book for the commentary on 2010 rules changes. It gives a pretty clear and concise answer to this topic.

[Canned Heat]

Originally Posted by HLin NC

Correct


Incorrect- this is what the change addressed for 2010. Wording was changed to "opponent".

Last year's debate, rule change clarifies this to be a HC foul for 2010.

My bad...I misprinted the opponent term in #2 and realized after I had sent it.

Thanks for the clarity. I would've liked an exact point where/when the foul occurred and where/when the runner lost posession, and probably should've asked for some more info prior to commenting.

Regards.

[HLin NC]

.now revised to be forward, sideways, or backwards..

I don't think forward is considered HC either.

Case Book-
*9.4.3 SITUATION L: A1 is running in the open field and B1 grabs A1's shoulder pad opening from behind and: (a) pulls A1 down abruptly backwards; (b) pulls A1 down to the ground from the side; (c) rides A1 for several yards before pulling A1 backwards to the ground; or (d) rides A1 for several yards before A1 falls forward. RULING: Illegal horse-collar foul in (a), (b) and (c), legal in (d).

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by HLin NC

I don't think forward is considered HC either.

Case Book-
*9.4.3 SITUATION L: A1 is running in the open field and B1 grabs A1's shoulder pad opening from behind and: (a) pulls A1 down abruptly backwards; (b) pulls A1 down to the ground from the side; (c) rides A1 for several yards before pulling A1 backwards to the ground; or (d) rides A1 for several yards before A1 falls forward. RULING: Illegal horse-collar foul in (a), (b) and (c), legal in (d).

I am assuming that is in the 2010 Casebook right?

Peace

[golfnref]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I am assuming that is in the 2010 Casebook right?

Peace

Correct. 2010 Casebook, Page 73.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by golfnref

Correct. 2010 Casebook, Page 73.

Thanks, I do not have a copy yet.

Peace