Roughing or not Study Group ? #1

[Reffing Rev.]

Hello all! Just as last year I will post for you a play created in the warped minds of some fellow crew chiefs around my parts for discussion amongst our crews.

FED RULES

3rd and 10 at A35. A1 receives the snap and rolls right towards L. Under heavy pressure he throws the ball at the feet of A88 who is within the expanded neutral zone. B99 renews his charge and levels defenseless A1 just after the ball strikes the ground. The timeframe from release to incompletion to contact is around a second.
What do you got? How would it change if it were 4th down? Who contributes what to the conversation R, U, L, BJ?

[The Roamin' Umpire]

Originally Posted by Reffing Rev.

FED RULES
3rd and 10 at A35. A1 receives the snap and rolls right towards L. Under heavy pressure he throws the ball at the feet of A88 who is within the expanded neutral zone. B99 renews his charge and levels defenseless A1 just after the ball strikes the ground. The timeframe from release to incompletion to contact is around a second.
What do you got? How would it change if it were 4th down? Who contributes what to the conversation R, U, L, BJ?

With the usual caveat of "gotta see it":
I expect a flag for grounding would be VERY difficult to justify here. QB is under pressure & throwing on the run; the ball was at an eligible receiver. Even at short range, you have to give him the benefit of the doubt and assume a misfire rather than intent.

By your use of the phrase "renews his charge", I presume you feel this qualifies for roughing. Despite the fact that the ball may have hit the ground a fraction of a second before the illegal contact, I would say this is sufficiently bang-bang to call roughing anyway. Should you disagree, it should still be a "regular" personal foul, which in this case yields a first down anyway.

If it's 4th down, then it makes a big difference which way you call it. Roughing is a live-ball foul with an automatic first down. The other way, it's a dead-ball personal foul that results in a turnover on downs before enforcing the penalty. In my mind, this should be roughing unless it's blatantly obvious to everybody in the stadium that the ball hit well before the contact.

This is R's primary call. Any of L, U, or B could have the information that the ball hit the ground before the contact occurred. If R comes up with a grounding flag on his own, L should inform him that there was an eligible receiver in the immediate vicinity.

[ajmc]

There are several "loaded" words in this question that can slant an answer in either direction. "Under heavy pressure he throws the ball at the feet of A88" is absolutely an illegal pass. That wording suggests a conclusion, regardless of how hard it might be to reach a conclusion that the pass was intentionally incomplete.

"B99 renews his charge and levels defenseless A1 just after the ball strikes the ground", seems a little overly dramatic, to have all happened within , "around a second", but again the wording suggests a conclusion has been made that the contact was deliberate, intentional and unnecessary.

Depending on how you determine those loaded words, you can have either; (1) an incomplete pass, followed by B roughing the passer, (2) a double foul for A's illegal pass coupled with B's roughing pass, (3) No foul on either team for either action or (4) either foul on one team, and be entirely (by rule)correct.

All of the key factors in this play are absolute and pure judgment calls, and as suggested above, are dependent on, "you gotta see it".

The keys are: 1. No matter how quick, no matter how short the pass, if the judgment is that the pass was deliberately incompleted, A is guilty of an illegal pass. If the judgment was that B's contact with the passer was avoidable, then you have a roughing penalty.

There is no absolute guideline for either situation. Each instance is unique and each is what the covering official has to decide it is. Judgment calls are what they are, and if they're made considering the appropriate factors, they are correct. Opinions, about what was judged are only that, and rarely have any bearing.

[Welpe]

Originally Posted by ajmc

"Under heavy pressure he throws the ball at the feet of A88" is absolutely an illegal pass.

What if you judge the pass was just poorly thrown?

[ajmc]

Originally Posted by Welpe

What if you judge the pass was just poorly thrown?

This is why I suggested the answer is tainted because the way the question was asked. The question states, "Under heavy pressure he throws the ball at the feet of A88", which is a statement of a deliberate, intentional action. If it stated "he threw the pass, which landed at the feet of A88" there would be room to consider how well it was thrown, did he lose his grip and all sorts of other considerations.

The key remains, it's a judgment call all the way. Depending on what the covering official judges the difference could be black or white. If the pass was simply judged to be a poorly thrown pass, all it is, is an incomplete pass.

[The Roamin' Umpire]

Originally Posted by ajmc

The key remains, it's a judgment call all the way. Depending on what the covering official judges the difference could be black or white. If the pass was simply judged to be a poorly thrown pass, all it is, is an incomplete pass.

While this is true, I suggest to you that you're going to have an extremely tough sell if you call grounding here. I would even go so far as to say that probably most of the relevant people (i.e. coaches and officials' supervisors) believe that this is a good play by the QB and would like us to pass on this call.

[CWIG]

Originally Posted by ajmc

Depending on how you determine those loaded words, you can have either; (1) an incomplete pass, followed by B roughing the passer, (2) a double foul for A's illegal pass coupled with B's roughing pass, (3) No foul on either team for either action or (4) either foul on one team, and be entirely (by rule)correct.

Keep in mind, you cannot have an offset for a double foul as stated in #2 above. There is no roughing the passer if the pass was illegal. You could possibly have a personal foul for the hit on the QB, but not roughing the passer. If you judged that the personal foul was during the live ball action, then you could have an offset. If you judged that the personal foul was after the incomplete pass, then you would have a dead ball foul and you would enforce live ball/dead ball. This enforcement would remain the same even if this play occurred on 4th down.

[JugglingReferee]

Originally Posted by Reffing Rev.

3rd and 10 at A35. A1 receives the snap and rolls right towards L. Under heavy pressure he throws the ball at the feet of A88 who is within the expanded neutral zone. B99 renews his charge and levels defenseless A1 just after the ball strikes the ground. The timeframe from release to incompletion to contact is around a second.
What do you got? How would it change if it were 4th down? Who contributes what to the conversation R, U, L, BJ?

CANADIAN RULING:

No foul for grounding. No foul for a late hit. No changes for last down. Officials contribute facts that they know.

Keep It Simple, S_______!