Study Group Question #3 (Kick Plays)

[Reffing Rev.]

With 5 days until our first scrimmage our study group hit kick plays tonight!

Situation A: 4th and 10 at the 50. K1's low punt is blocked by R1 at the R48. The ball then bounces out to the flat and bounces off of K2 who is blocking R2 at the R40. The ball is then recovered at the K45 by K3 who advances to the R20.

Whose ball and where? When does the clock start?

Situation B: same as above but while the ball is loose R5 blocks K5 in the back at the R30

Situation C: same as A but while the ball is loose substitute K12 enters the field but does not influece the play in any way.

[ppaltice]

R's touching in the NZ expanded is ignored.

For A, You probably have KCI at R40. You definitely have first touching at R40. K can legally advance. So, R can take the ball at R40 (clock starts on snap) or mark off 15 yds from previous spot and rekick (clock starts on ready).

For B, we have a double foul, so replay the down.

For C, same as A but tack on another 5 yards for the nonplayer substitution foul (penalized from succeeding spot)-> R's ball 1st and 10 at R45 or K's ball 4th and 30 from K's 30 yd line.

[Welpe]

Originally Posted by Reffing Rev.

With 5 days until our first scrimmage our study group hit kick plays tonight!

Situation A: 4th and 10 at the 50. K1's low punt is blocked by R1 at the R48. The ball then bounces out to the flat and bounces off of K2 who is blocking R2 at the R40. The ball is then recovered at the K45 by K3 who advances to the R20.

Whose ball and where? When does the clock start?

Good play for discussion! I'll take the first one and leave the rest for others.

In this situation, R1's touching is ignored because it is a low scrimmage kick and the touching is within the expanded netural zone:

6-2-6: The touching of a low scrimmage kick by any player is ignored if the touching is in or behind the expanded neutral zone. The neutral zone shall not be expanded into the end zone.

We have first touching by K2 with a bean bag down at the R40. R will no doubt take the ball at the spot of first touching. 1st and 10 for R at the R40, clock starts on the snap.

Edit: I see ppaltice beat me to it. When Reffing Ref said the ball went bouncing out to the R40, I am picturing the kick being grounded before it is touched by K.

[Reffing Rev.]

I miss-typed the play but the original one is good too...the play we discussed tonight had K2 being blocked by R2 not the other way around. R2 is more likely to be blocking than K2 is.

So call this Situation A-corrected or whatever.

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by Reffing Rev.

I miss-typed the play but the original one is good too...the play we discussed tonight had K2 being blocked by R2 not the other way around. R2 is more likely to be blocking than K2 is.

So call this Situation A-corrected or whatever.

So, play A*: touching in NZ ignored, R2, blocking K2, touches kick at R40, K3 recovers at K45 and runs to R20.

Since R2, not K2, touches the ball here, obviously no first touching by K2. The covering official will have to rule on whether R2 is blocked into the kick: if so, then we have first touching by K3 at K45. If not, then the ball belongs to K at R20 1/10.

[VALJ]

Originally Posted by mbyron

So, play A*: touching in NZ ignored, R2, blocking K2, touches kick at R40, K3 recovers at K45 and runs to R20.

Since R2, not K2, touches the ball here, obviously no first touching by K2. The covering official will have to rule on whether R2 is blocked into the kick: if so, then we have first touching by K3 at K45. If not, then the ball belongs to K at R20 1/10.

If R2 is judged as not having been blocked into the kick, and the ball was recovered behind the LOS, I agree that K3 can run with the ball. If the ball were recovered at the R45, K3 could recover, but not advance, so it would be K1@10 at R45. Correct?

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by VALJ

If R2 is judged as not having been blocked into the kick, and the ball was recovered behind the LOS, I agree that K3 can run with the ball. If the ball were recovered at the R45, K3 could recover, but not advance, so it would be K1@10 at R45. Correct?

Correct.

6.2.3 SITUATION A: A scrimmage kick by K1 is partially blocked in the neutral
zone by R1. The kick goes beyond the neutral zone where R2 muffs it back behind
the neutral zone. K2 recovers behind the neutral zone and advances across R’s
goal line. RULING: Touchdown for K. COMMENT: The right of the kickers to
advance their recovered scrimmage kick depends entirely upon whether the kick
is recovered in, behind or beyond the neutral zone. Whether the kick went beyond
the neutral zone and then rebounded behind it is of no consequence. The spot of
recovery is the only factor. If the recovery is in or behind the neutral zone, K may
advance. If the recovery is beyond the neutral zone, K may recover, but may not
advance.

[Reffing Rev.]

I apologize again...in our play R never touched the ball. R2 is blocking K2 at the R40 when the ball hits K2 then rebounds to the K45 where K recovers and runs to the R20.

[Robert Goodman]

Originally Posted by Welpe

6-2-6: ...The neutral zone shall not be expanded into the end zone.

Why does Fed add that? If a kick goes into the opposing end zone in Fed, it's a touchback unless it has a chance to score a goal, and R's touching it doesn't affect that. Is there some play situation I'm missing where if the neutral zone extended beyond R's goal line it would matter? Something about unforced vs. forced touching by K that affects its ability to score if that occurred in the neutral zone?

Robert

[ppaltice]

1st and goal at the one. A68 is just inside the EZ. A88 catches a forward pass in the EZ.

A68 is guilty of ineligible down field. Even though he was less than 2 yards from the LOS, the NZ cannot be expanded into the EZ.

[patalia]

Originally Posted by Reffing Rev.

With 5 days until our first scrimmage our study group hit kick plays tonight!

Situation A: 4th and 10 at the 50. K1's low punt is blocked by R1 at the R48. The ball then bounces out to the flat and bounces off of K2 who is blocking R2 at the R40. The ball is then recovered at the K45 by K3 who advances to the R20.

Whose ball and where? When does the clock start?

Situation B: same as above but while the ball is loose R5 blocks K5 in the back at the R30

Situation C: same as A but while the ball is loose substitute K12 enters the field but does not influece the play in any way.

Let's give this a try:
Sit. A original: initial touching by R is ignored because he is in the neutral zone expanded and we have a low scrimmage kick. I assume bounces out to the flat means the ball has been grounded, but it also appears we are now 10 yards downfield. Since the ball has been grounded, we can't have KCI on K, but we do have first touching. K3 can advance this ball, but R will inevitably take the first touching spot and we will have 1&10 R at R's 40. Clock starts on the snap.

Sit. A revised: Determine if R2's blocking of K2 causes forced touching. If so you will have no first touching against K and you will end up with 1&10 K on R's 20. Clock starts on the snap because a new series was awarded following a legal kick.

Sit. B original: First touching priviledge vanishes with foul by R or any player foul enforced by either team, therefore, play will stand. K will get 1&10 on the R 20. Having said that, you probably have a legal block in the back because it was during the loose ball and R5 could legally recover the ball giving him an exception to block in the back in order to help his effort to recover a loose ball he could legally recover. Wave it off and 1&10 R at R's 40 where K2 first touched. Clock starts on the snap because a new series was awarded following a legal kick.

Sit. B revised: Again, probably don't have block in the back by R because of loose ball and R5 could legally recover, so determine if R2's blocking of K2 created forced touching. If so, 1&10 K at R's 20. Clock starts on the snap. If not, 1&10 R at R's 40. Clock starts on the snap.

Sit. C original: R can accept the penalty by K and keep first touching priviledges because this was a non-player foul with succeeding spot enforcement. Therefore, 1&10 for R on their 45. Clock starts on the snap. If it were any player foul, R would need to decline the penalty in order to preserve the first touching spot.

Sit. C revised: Again, determine if R2's block created forced touching by K2. If so, we will end up with 1&10 K at the R 25 yard line since the illegal substitution foul was a non-player variety foul and will have succeeding spot enforcement. Clock starts on the snap. If not, then same as Sit. C original.

Great question by the way. Really got the brain smoking.

[Robert Goodman]

Originally Posted by ppaltice

1st and goal at the one. A68 is just inside the EZ. A88 catches a forward pass in the EZ.

A68 is guilty of ineligible down field. Even though he was less than 2 yards from the LOS, the NZ cannot be expanded into the EZ.

I forgot Fed has an expanded neutral zone even without its being a kick play.