What is the foul?

[bigjohn]

A22 enters the game as A33 leaves, A22 never gets inside the 9yd mark just lines up at the bottom of the numbers. What is the call?

[FredFan7]

Illegal formation. Flag at the snap. 5 yards from the previous spot.

[Welpe]

If the substitution is done in an attempt to illegaly deceive the defense, you could also have Illegal Participation. This could also be simply a "talk to" if I see that A22 is covered by a defender and I judge no advantage was gained though I'm not sure you'd like that one, John.

[bigjohn]

3.7.5 SITUATION: Substitute (a) A1, or (b) B1, noticing his team has only 10
players on the field, comes onto the field just as the ball is about to be snapped.
RULING: In (a), A1 must be on the field on A’s side of the neutral zone, inside the
9-yard marks, and not violate the shift or motion provisions. Furthermore, the act
of his coming onto the field must not deceive the defensive team. In (b), the substitution
is legal as long as B1 is on the field on B’s side of the neutral zone prior
to the snap. (3-7-6; 7-2-1,6,7; 9-6-4)

[ajmc]

The difference between being impartial and being an advocate is that although both can read the words of a rule, only one considers how best to apply them to equally serve the interest of both competitors, as well as the game itself.

[bigjohn]

2005 - NFHS Football Rules Changes - Football.Refs.Org

Two changes were approved by the committee to help officials better determine the 11 legal offensive players in the game. The first change will require a mark 12 inches in length, 4 inches in width and 9 yards from each sideline to be located on each 10-yard line. The other change will require all offensive players to be, momentarily, between the 9-yard marks after the ready for play and prior to the snap, and adhere to all other pre-snap requirements. The 9-yard markings are not required on fields that are visibly numbered.

"The Football Rules Committee has considered various issues over the past few years to address substitutions and the balance between offense and defense," said Brad Cashman, executive director of the Pennsylvania Interscholastic Athletic Association and chairman of the NFHS Football Rules Committee. "Teams were reportedly returning to previous practices of hiding players near the sideline, as well as attempting to deceive the opponents with various substitution abnormalities.

"The previous rule requiring each offensive player to be within 15 yards of the ball was inconsistently applied, as it contained no easily verifiable fixed reference point for officials to administer."

In addition to the substitution rule mentioned above, several other substitution and illegal participation rules were revised by the committee to clarify omissions and eliminate conflicts within the rules.

[ajmc]

"Bureaucracy": When rules conflict with common sense, to blindly follow the letter of the rule rather than reason the objective. Good officials make lousy bureaucrats.

[Rich]

I can tell you that my crew will not flag this if the kid is properly covered.

We'll talk with the coach after and remind him to get the player inside the marks, but we're simply not going to flag the first one.

Normally this happens during a hurry-up where they get lined up before I can hit the RFP and the defense is ready, the offense is ready and everyone's waiting on the line to set and for the umpire to spot the ball and for me to blow the RFP. Why should they have to wait inside and then shift into their formation?

It's a rule that was written to combat deceptive substitutions and shifts and I would rather work with the intent of the rule rather than the strict letter of it, regardless of how many case plays someone posts.

[bigjohn]

"The previous rule requiring each offensive player to be within 15 yards of the ball was inconsistently applied, as it contained no easily verifiable fixed reference point for officials to administer."

[bigjohn]

So Rich, your crew doesn't have a case book?



3.7.5 SITUATION: Substitute (a) A1, or (b) B1, noticing his team has only 10
players on the field, comes onto the field just as the ball is about to be snapped.
RULING: In (a), A1 must be on the field on A’s side of the neutral zone, inside the
9-yard marks, and not violate the shift or motion provisions. Furthermore, the act
of his coming onto the field must not deceive the defensive team. In (b), the substitution
is legal as long as B1 is on the field on B’s side of the neutral zone prior
to the snap. (3-7-6; 7-2-1,6,7; 9-6-4)

[Rich]

Originally Posted by bigjohn

So Rich, your crew doesn't have a case book?



3.7.5 SITUATION: Substitute (a) A1, or (b) B1, noticing his team has only 10
players on the field, comes onto the field just as the ball is about to be snapped.
RULING: In (a), A1 must be on the field on A’s side of the neutral zone, inside the
9-yard marks, and not violate the shift or motion provisions. Furthermore, the act
of his coming onto the field must not deceive the defensive team. In (b), the substitution
is legal as long as B1 is on the field on B’s side of the neutral zone prior
to the snap. (3-7-6; 7-2-1,6,7; 9-6-4)

I'm telling you exactly how we handle it. If you don't like it, too bad.

[bigjohn]

OK, I can respect that. If no one covers A22, do you call illegal substitution?

[Rich]

Originally Posted by bigjohn

OK, I can respect that. If no one covers A22, do you call illegal substitution?

Depends on the circumstances, really. But I've not had any teams run anything deceptive in this regard.

Come to think of it, we had this on a punt play a few years ago, and we flagged it for illegal formation (nobody covered the gunner, who wasn't inside, and the wing flagged it in case it was a designed fake -- the penalty was declined as it was a poor punt).

The rule has good intentions behind it, but the reality is that it takes time to reset after a play and when a team runs without a huddle (especially with no substitutions) there's no real reason to expect the team to meet the letter of this rule. I've not met a crew who does expect it, either.

I'm sure at least 10 officials will now post and say they do expect it, but it just proves that almost all officiating (despite national rules) is local.

[Welpe]

Originally Posted by bigjohn

OK, I can respect that. If no one covers A22, do you call illegal substitution?

If it is a foul, it'd either be illegal participation or illegal formation.

[kdf5]

Illegal formation, 7-2-1 . . . After the ball is marked ready for play, each player of A who participated in the previous down and each substitute for A must have been, momentarily, between the 9-yard marks, before the snap.

PENALTY: Illegal formation (Arts. 1, 2, 3) – (S19);

It can't be illegal substitution. Which one of these did he violate?

3-7 Substitutions

ART. 1 . . . Between downs any number of eligible substitutes may replace players. Replaced players shall leave the field immediately.
ART. 2 . . . A player, replaced player or a substitute is required to leave the field at the side on which his team box is located and go directly to his team box.
ART. 3 . . . During the same dead-ball interval, no substitute shall become a player and then withdraw and no player shall withdraw and re-enter as a substitute unless a penalty is accepted, a dead-ball foul occurs, there is a charged time-out or the period ends.
ART. 4 . . . During a down a replaced player or substitute who attempts unsuccessfully to leave the field and who does not participate in or affect the play, constitutes an illegal substitution.
NOTE: Participation by a replaced player or substitute is illegal participation as in 9-6.
ART. 5 . . . An entering substitute shall be on his team’s side of the neutral zone when the ball is snapped or free kicked.
ART. 6 . . . During a down, a replaced player or substitute who enters the field, but does not participate, constitutes illegal substitution.

PENALTY: Illegal substitution (Arts. 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6) – (S22); (Arts. 1, 2, 3) dead-ball foul – (S7-22); (Arts. 4, 5) live-ball foul – 5 yards; (Art. 6) non-player foul – 5 yards (S22)

Possibly Illegal Participation:

9-6-4d...d. To use a player, replaced player, substitute, coach, trainer or other attendant in a substitution or pretended substitution to deceive opponents at or immediately before the snap or free kick.