What is the foul?

[Welpe]

Originally Posted by bigjohn

OK, I can respect that. If no one covers A22, do you call illegal substitution?

If it is a foul, it'd either be illegal participation or illegal formation.

[kdf5]

Illegal formation, 7-2-1 . . . After the ball is marked ready for play, each player of A who participated in the previous down and each substitute for A must have been, momentarily, between the 9-yard marks, before the snap.

PENALTY: Illegal formation (Arts. 1, 2, 3) – (S19);

It can't be illegal substitution. Which one of these did he violate?

3-7 Substitutions

ART. 1 . . . Between downs any number of eligible substitutes may replace players. Replaced players shall leave the field immediately.
ART. 2 . . . A player, replaced player or a substitute is required to leave the field at the side on which his team box is located and go directly to his team box.
ART. 3 . . . During the same dead-ball interval, no substitute shall become a player and then withdraw and no player shall withdraw and re-enter as a substitute unless a penalty is accepted, a dead-ball foul occurs, there is a charged time-out or the period ends.
ART. 4 . . . During a down a replaced player or substitute who attempts unsuccessfully to leave the field and who does not participate in or affect the play, constitutes an illegal substitution.
NOTE: Participation by a replaced player or substitute is illegal participation as in 9-6.
ART. 5 . . . An entering substitute shall be on his team’s side of the neutral zone when the ball is snapped or free kicked.
ART. 6 . . . During a down, a replaced player or substitute who enters the field, but does not participate, constitutes illegal substitution.

PENALTY: Illegal substitution (Arts. 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6) – (S22); (Arts. 1, 2, 3) dead-ball foul – (S7-22); (Arts. 4, 5) live-ball foul – 5 yards; (Art. 6) non-player foul – 5 yards (S22)

Possibly Illegal Participation:

9-6-4d...d. To use a player, replaced player, substitute, coach, trainer or other attendant in a substitution or pretended substitution to deceive opponents at or immediately before the snap or free kick.

[Jim D.]

John, it's the same foul here as on the NFHS board - Illegal formation.

[bigjohn]

3.7.5 says that A players are illegal substitutes unless they are on their teams side of the ball, have been inside the 9's before the snap and not in violation of illegal motion or shift.

RULING: In (a), A1 must be on the field on A’s side of the neutral zone, inside the
9-yard marks, and not violate the shift or motion provisions. Furthermore, the act
of his coming onto the field must not deceive the defensive team.


In (b), the substitution
is legal as long as B1 is on the field on B’s side of the neutral zone prior
to the snap.

If B is Legal A must be ILLEGAL unless all requirements are met!



It says for B there are no restrictions other than being on their side of the ball.

ART. 5 . . . An entering substitute shall be on his team’s side of the neutral zone

when the ball is snapped or free kicked.



The casebook is saying there is more to this rule than written! Rule 3-7-5 needs to be edited so officials will call it the way the casebook says to call it.

[bigjohn]

ART. 5 . . . An entering substitute shall be on his team’s side of the neutral zone when the ball is snapped or free kicked, A players must have been inside the 9 yard marks prior to the snap, as well.


This is what 3-7-5 should say so that is clear what the casebook play 3.7.5 is telling officials to call.

[bigjohn]

3.7.5 SITUATION: Substitute (a) A1, or (b) B1, noticing his team has only 10
players on the field, comes onto the field just as the ball is about to be snapped.




RULING: In (a), A1 must be on the field on A’s side of the neutral zone, inside the
9-yard marks, and not violate the shift or motion provisions. Furthermore, the act
of his coming onto the field must not deceive the defensive team.


In (b),

the substitution
is legal


as long as B1 is on the field on B’s side of the neutral zone prior
to the snap. (3-7-6; 7-2-1,6,7; 9-6-4)



If situation (b) is legal substitution, situation (a) must be illegal substitution unless A meets all requirements of being a LEGAL OFFENSIVE PLAYER!!!!!

2005 - NFHS Football Rules Changes - Football.Refs.Org


Two changes were approved by the committee to help officials better determine the 11 legal offensive players in the game. The first change will require a mark 12 inches in length, 4 inches in width and 9 yards from each sideline to be located on each 10-yard line. The other change will require all offensive players to be, momentarily, between the 9-yard marks after the ready for play and prior to the snap, and adhere to all other pre-snap requirements. The 9-yard markings are not required on fields that are visibly numbered.

"The Football Rules Committee has considered various issues over the past few years to address substitutions and the balance between offense and defense," said Brad Cashman, executive director of the Pennsylvania Interscholastic Athletic Association and chairman of the NFHS Football Rules Committee. "Teams were reportedly returning to previous practices of hiding players near the sideline, as well as attempting to deceive the opponents with various substitution abnormalities.

"The previous rule requiring each offensive player to be within 15 yards of the ball was inconsistently applied, as it contained no easily verifiable fixed reference point for officials to administer."

In addition to the substitution rule mentioned above, several other substitution and illegal participation rules were revised by the committee to clarify omissions and eliminate conflicts within the rules

[bigjohn]

9-6-4d

d. To use a player, replaced player, substitute, coach, trainer or other attendant
in a substitution or pretended substitution to deceive opponents at or
immediately before the snap or free kick.

Then it should always be IP, it does not say the deception must be intentional.

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by bigjohn

9-6-4d

d. To use a player, replaced player, substitute, coach, trainer or other attendant
in a substitution or pretended substitution to deceive opponents at or
immediately before the snap or free kick.

Then it should always be IP, it does not say the deception must be intentional.

In fact it does say that. No act can be "used to deceive" without intent to deceive.