Position of wingmen

[BktBallRef]

We've been having this huge discussion in our association concerning the positioning of wingmen. The NFHS states that the L and LJ should be positioned no closer than 9 yards from the sidest offensive player and on the sideline, if necessary.

I realize that NCAA and NFL officials predominantly work the sideline. Honestly, I'm not interested in hearing the opinions of those who work college. I know what you prefer and why you prefer it and that's fine. But what about others who work HIGH SCHOOL ONLY? Which do you prefer, sidelines or closer in?

[Cliff Keen]

I’m a HS official and I work on the sideline. I feel being on the sideline is the best spot overall especially on runs around the end. If you’re off the sideline, you're more prone to falling backwards, tripping, etc as the play progresses your way.

Were trained to come into bodies on EVERY play for forward progress. No jumping over bodies. Just move in to your spot to the first body you come too.

When the play is going away, this is not break time! Flow with the play, gravitate towards the action, and off-ball officiate as the play closes down. A lot of stuff happens around the ball and the opposite wing can see it all!

I’m on the sideline regardless of where the ball is marked!

[BktBallRef]

Let's say the ball is on the opposite hash and there's no wideout on your side. The closest player could be almost 30 yards away. Do you close in any at all?

Doesn't being further away from the players make it more difficult to preventive officiate?

Do you have any problems with keeping the teams back, so you have room to work?

[Mike Simonds]

BBR, I agree with you. Its hard to officiate from the sideline when the ball is spotted on the opposite hash mark, especially when there is no split end or flanker on your side. As an umpire I appreciate it when the HL and LJ can help out with false starts and also the initial block of the tackles. In our association the HL and LJ are told to start at the sideline. Its always easier to officiate forwards instead of having to backpedal or even worse to retreat into the offensive backfield to avoid wide plays to your side. However, in my own humble opinion I support the idea of the HL or LJ moving in to the numbers when appropriate. In the past few seasons it seems that the trend in high school football in Hawaii is towards more passing and the run-and-shoot type of spread offense. That is one of the primary reasons why the wings are asked to begin on the sideline and the move to 6 man mechanics for varsity with the FJ and SJ using "fade mechanics" (which is lining up 20 yards downfield from the LJ and HL and maintaining that distance during the play; also, the first move for the FJ and SJ is always backwards downfield). But I still think when the teams line up on the far hash in a tight formation you have to move in to the numbers to get better coverage.

[Theisey]

I'd like to answer here if you don't mind.

Originally posted by BktBallRef
Let's say the ball is on the opposite hash and there's no wideout on your side. The closest player could be almost 30 yards away. Do you close in any at all?

### Not at all. Too many officials think that they have to come in close, especially down around the 10 and in. They get eaten alive on an option or reverse to their side or a down-n-out pass pattern to the corner. Wider is better. You see more, you are in the good position to make calls or no calls and forward progress. NF mechanics with regards to initial positioning of the wing officials are obsolete with how todays high school game is played.

Originally posted by BktBallRef
Doesn't being further away from the players make it more difficult to preventive officiate?

### Not really, many times the problem children are no where near where the ball is finally declared dead. You can see this potential problem develope much easier when positioned wide.

Originally posted by BktBallRef
Do you have any problems with keeping the teams back, so you have room to work?

### Teams are not usually the problem, it's those coaches. We have to many gutless officials that allow far too many non-player types in the so called coaching area. NF should give us a two yard belt as is done at the higher levels. A coach does not need to be in there.

So where I do position myself during NF games? On or near the sidelines for all plays.

[Cliff Keen]

I agree on this that the coaches are to often on the field. Part of the problem is the players are trying to get closer to the action hence pushing the coaches out to. Were trained to say, “Players, move back so your coaches have room to work”. That pushes the players back and the coaches get the hint too!

This year, I’m going to be setting the tone early in the game to have these sidelines clear and back.

[BktBallRef]

Originally posted by Mike Simonds
In our association the HL and LJ are told to start at the sideline. Its always easier to officiate forwards instead of having to backpedal or even worse to retreat into the offensive backfield to avoid wide plays to your side. However, in my own humble opinion I support the idea of the HL or LJ moving in to the numbers when appropriate.

This is exactly what we have decided to do. We will start on the sideline and then adjust as needed.

In the past few seasons it seems that the trend in high school football in Hawaii is towards more passing and the run-and-shoot type of spread offense.

It's spreading East as well. We're seeing more and more of the run and shoot type offenses. I think it's only the beginning.

But I still think when the teams line up on the far hash in a tight formation you have to move in to the numbers to get better coverage.

And I agree. I think 25-30 yards away is too far. Yes, wider is better but at some point it becomes detrimental. Where is that point? I don't think there's any one answer. Perhaps each individual has to judge for himself.

Originally posted by Theisey

### Teams are not usually the problem, it's those coaches. We have to many gutless officials that allow far too many non-player types in the so called coaching area. NF should give us a two yard belt as is done at the higher levels. A coach does not need to be in there.

So where I do position myself during NF games? On or near the sidelines for all plays. [/B]

I agree and that's what I meant with regards to teams. We really do need a wider belt on the sideline. I think that's one reason working the sideline is more effective in college and the pros. I'm just concerned that I'm not going to have the room I need to move if those coaches, and, inevitably, players are in my back pocket. Normally, I ask who's going to be my "get-back coach?" That's the coach that I'm going to look for when I need coaches and players to back up. It's his responibility to get'em back.

Tom, have you always worked this wide or did you start doing it after you started working college? When are you NEAR the sideline as opposed to on it?

[Ed Hickland]

Originally posted by BktBallRef
We've been having this huge discussion in our association concerning the positioning of wingmen. The NFHS states that the L and LJ should be positioned no closer than 9 yards from the sidest offensive player and on the sideline, if necessary.

I realize that NCAA and NFL officials predominantly work the sideline. Honestly, I'm not interested in hearing the opinions of those who work college. I know what you prefer and why you prefer it and that's fine. But what about others who work HIGH SCHOOL ONLY? Which do you prefer, sidelines or closer in?

The L and LJ on my crew start on the sideline and adjust, if necessary. Prevailing thought coming down from the NFL and NCAA is to open yourself to the play. Think about it, moving forward is a lot easier than moving backwards.

I taught my wingmen on the sweep to their side to back away from the LOS and let the sweep get in front of them. Then leave about 10 yards between them and the point of attack straddling the sideline.

It is better to get a wide view of the play than to be so close until you miss action around the ball carrier.

[Theisey]

Originally posted by BktBallRef
Tom, have you always worked this wide or did you start doing it after you started working college? When are you NEAR the sideline as opposed to on it? [/B]

When I first started, I followed the manual and did just what I saw the other experienced officials were doing. Even back then I felt uncomfortable being in so close, but I had the speed to get out of harms way without having to turn my back and run like a spooked rabit as I see happening today. I don't have that speed any more.
As the team game plans changed to much more sprint-out passing, option plays and sideline passes, I started moving further away and I liked it much better. After working under CCA mechanics and doing a few college games I liked being as wide as possible even more. Those players run wide and head to the pylon... and they do it FAST. Just when you think they are heading up field, they bounce off a missed tackle and head to the sideline. Really, you don't miss or compromise any calls or forward progress spots by being wide. I really believe the wider angle makes it easier.

Now, what I meant by near the sidelines is this for NF game (not any ncaa games). I'll split the yardarge between the 9 yard marks or top of the numbers when the team is snapping from the far inbounds line. That would put me about 4 yards in. If there is a receiver split wide to my side, I'll move back to the sideline. I still have plenty of time to get to the sideline and down the field to the pylon area if the play is coming my way. If the play stays on the opposite side, I move cautiously downfield and further on to the field unless there are a few players near me. I'll not let them get behind me as that's when potential trouble may occur. Even in ncaa games, I'll move in to the 9 yard marks as the plays move away from me. But that's it until the play is dead. Too many times, that play can suddenly turn back your way and you're screwed. You'll never get to the sideline nor down the field. With a 5-man crew the sideline is naked if a wing moves in too far. As luck as it, all my games this year are either 6 or 7 man. The key areas, the sideline and goal line will be properly covered as someone will be there.

Sorry for rambling on, but I really think as wide as possible is the right way to go in todays NF Varsity games.

[Kelvin green]

Here in Utah we work the sidelines. I think for someone like me who has done a lot of basketball that staying wide when the ball is opposite hash is really uncomfortable, because I'm used to being near the action.

However as I have learned and worked games wide is better.

What we are attempting to do in our area is to go a yard or two wider than the sideline, and then step up to the sideline as the o goes into formation. That way we can keep players and coaches back and give us and the chains room to operate like we are supposed to.

[Sleeper]

Here in Texas, I have been taught that wider is better. Consistently the message has been: Work the sideline, but never in closer than the 9 yard marks. The only exception is on a fumble to my side of the field and goal line situations, when I need a better view of the ball to get a spot. It feels pretty comfortable, but I am worried about the smaller fields where there is not a lot of room in the sideline areas. I guess I'll see how it goes.

[STEVED21]

BBR

Here in Westchester Co. NY we try to teach the wing officials to START on the sidelines and move in when nescessary. We call it "be wide, stay wide". However, moving across the field is important when the play calls for it. Keep everyone in front of you. We don't want anything to be missed behind us, but it doesn't mean we stay anchored to the sidelines.

Obviously, the teams will also dictate this. If the run the ball consistently, you can cheat slightly in. But I found that the first play you cheat, they run the triple option reverse behind you. IMO I don't think that anything looks worse for a wing official backing up to cover a sweep. On the well marked fields I like to work in the "white".

[BktBallRef]

Good comments, guys. It sounds like we made the right decision when we decided to start on the sideline and adjust from there. That seems to be what others are doing as well.

My only other thought would be that many od our fields are crown based, so that they'll drain properly. Sounds like I'll be able to see my follow winman from about the waist up and I'll be doing a lot of running uphill!

Thanks again!

[Cliff Keen]

Hey no problem! It's good to see what other states teach. Now how bout some input on my kicking game thread!!