2009 NFHS Football Questionnaire

[Cobra]

Originally Posted by RichMSN

I would also extend the fouls that give an automatic first down. All 15 yard fouls by the defense would. OPI would not be a loss of down. All fouls would be enforced from the previous spot, rather than all-but-one. A hold can be a drive killer in a HS game when we go from 2nd and 10 to 2nd and 27.

But the down is replayed so it doesn't hurt A that much. If A75 didn't hold 7 yards in the backfield then B64 could have gotten past him and tackled the QB for a 10 yard loss....it could have been 2nd and 20. If A75 holds then it ends up 1st and 20 since the down is replayed. Either way it the line to gain is 20 yards away but if A fouls it will be 1st down and with no foul it is 2nd down. So by A fouling they gained a down.

The problem of excessively penalizing the offense for holding was eliminated when the penalty was reduced to 10 yards.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by Cobra

But the down is replayed so it doesn't hurt A that much. If A75 didn't hold 7 yards in the backfield then B64 could have gotten past him and tackled the QB for a 10 yard loss....it could have been 2nd and 20. If A75 holds then it ends up 1st and 20 since the down is replayed. Either way it the line to gain is 20 yards away but if A fouls it will be 1st down and with no foul it is 2nd down. So by A fouling they gained a down.

The problem of excessively penalizing the offense for holding was eliminated when the penalty was reduced to 10 yards.

I missed one: End of the run enforcement on a defensive foul. Tackle a guy illegally (with a face mask) and benefit from the yardage lost by that illegal tackle. Same thing with a defensive holding foul -- the passer has no open receivers and is sacked due to such a foul and it's 10 yards from the end of the run.

[ajmc]

Originally Posted by RichMSN

I missed one: End of the run enforcement on a defensive foul. Tackle a guy illegally (with a face mask) and benefit from the yardage lost by that illegal tackle. Same thing with a defensive holding foul -- the passer has no open receivers and is sacked due to such a foul and it's 10 yards from the end of the run.

Somewhere along the line you have to consider the defense. Tackle a guy by the face mask and you're going to pay an additional 15 yards from where you fouled. If he breaks free and gains another 10 yards on his own, you're still going to tack on 15 yards for the facemask from where he wound up.

If that passer can get rid of the ball, the foul is enforced from the previous spot.

[Robert Goodman]

Originally Posted by ajmc

If that passer can get rid of the ball, the foul is enforced from the previous spot.

Right, but the objection is that he didn't throw the ball because while potential passer A2 wasn't looking in potential receiver A1's direction (it being a good idea of course to "look off the route"), B1 tackled A1, and A2 didn't notice the flag or know what it was for. Someone on the bench could've yelled "free pass" to help, though.

The comeback to that is that even though no ineligibles went downfield, how do we know it was even intended to be a pass play?

[Robert Goodman]

Originally Posted by Cobra

The problem of excessively penalizing the offense for holding was eliminated when the penalty was reduced to 10 yards.

Which makes one wonder why they increased it from 10 to 15 to begin with. AFAICT it was intended as a simplifying move -- to have only 5 & 15 yard penalties -- and that's the way it stayed for decades in all American codes. NFL broke that pattern. Canadian football meanwhile stuck with a 10 yard penalty for illegal use of hands.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by Robert Goodman

Which makes one wonder why they increased it from 10 to 15 to begin with. AFAICT it was intended as a simplifying move -- to have only 5 & 15 yard penalties -- and that's the way it stayed for decades in all American codes. NFL broke that pattern. Canadian football meanwhile stuck with a 10 yard penalty for illegal use of hands.

The NFHS has made it fairly easy on us in that there are only a few 10 yard penalties -- and only 3 we'll see on a regular basis -- holding, IBB, and IUH.

Everything else is either 5 or 15 and it's easy to classify those.