NCAA: Illegal forward pass and roughing the passer?

[bearclause]

Just a warning that this clip has a way too high sound level:

YouTube - Dumb play

Now it didn't happen that there was roughing, but the defender did place his hands on the QB after he'd caught his own batted back forward pass and threw for a second forward pass. What would have been the consequence if the QB was roughed after throwing an illegal forward pass? I'm thinking NCAA doesn't have a preferential enforcement of the personal foul and they offset. Or is the illegal forward pass first enforced as a live-ball foul and the roughing penalty then enforced as a dead ball foul (automatic first down)?

I suppose the timing would also matter, since the defender had his hands on him for some time and theoretically could have given him a more serious shove well after the receiver was down.

[mbyron]

Roughing the passer must occur when you have a passer. A passer by definition throws a legal forward pass. So you couldn't have RTP on this play.

You could have PF for unnecessary roughness, in which case the penalties would offset.

[bearclause]

Originally Posted by mbyron

Roughing the passer must occur when you have a passer. A passer by definition throws a legal forward pass. So you couldn't have RTP on this play.

You could have PF for unnecessary roughness, in which case the penalties would offset.

It did occur to me that even if it's not RTP that it could be another PF for hitting a player who's clearly out of the play.

I was just curious as to what might happen if a PF happens after the receiver was down. The defender sort of gives him a little shove but nothing egregious.

[Forksref]

I especially liked the coach with the white hat and headphones giving the loss of down signal. You gotta love coaches who know the rules and signals!

[bossman72]

Originally Posted by Forksref

I especially liked the coach with the white hat and headphones giving the loss of down signal. You gotta love coaches who know the rules and signals!

haha, you'd think he's that clever, but i think he was trying to press his headphones on to hear

[bearclause]

Originally Posted by bossman72

haha, you'd think he's that clever, but i think he was trying to press his headphones on to hear

Heck - even I understood the joke. At first I was looking at what Mike Stoops (he's got a white hat and a headset) was doing, and then I realized it was one of his assistants with his hands over the headset cans looking sort of like the loss of down signal.

A bunch of us who saw the game were discussing odd "who would have thought of that?" theoretical rules issues in addition to a PF/RTP after the 2nd pass. Of course PI can't be called since it's not a legal forward pass. As far as I can tell, any contact that would be considered a block would be legal. I'm not sure what would happen if it's an illegal forward pass and the defender wraps up or grabs the receiver (of the illegal forward pass) before it gets to him. I thought that would be defensive holding, but it sort of boggles the mind that it would get called since it's an illegal forward pass. Or is the illegal forward pass considered a fumble where it's legal to grab and push?

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by bearclause

It did occur to me that even if it's not RTP that it could be another PF for hitting a player who's clearly out of the play.

I was just curious as to what might happen if a PF happens after the receiver was down. The defender sort of gives him a little shove but nothing egregious.

A dead ball PF would be penalized independently of the live ball foul. So if there had been a dead ball PF, you would have enforced the IFP penalty including LOD, then enforced the PF against the defense. If that moved the ball past the line to gain, it would be 1/10 for A, otherwise still 4th down.