NFHS: Where do we put the ball?

[CWIG]

I believe Merlin has a vaild point. There would almost certainly have to be ineligibles downfield at that point. If so, and since poessession never changed (no 'clean hands' to think about), the foul would be enforced from the previous spot. Replay of 4th down.

[Bullycon]

Originally Posted by CWIG

I believe Merlin has a vaild point. There would almost certainly have to be ineligibles downfield at that point. If so, and since poessession never changed (no 'clean hands' to think about), the foul would be enforced from the previous spot. Replay of 4th down.

A new series is still awarded to K because they are in possession at the end of a down in which R was the first to touch a scrimmage kick beyond the expanded neutral zone. (5-1-3f, 5-2-2, 5-2-5f)

It will be 1st and 10 for K from K's 35 following penalty enforcement.

[Robert Goodman]

Originally Posted by merlin

I would think that there would have to be illegal men downfield in this scenario as well.

We don't even know that the pass went beyond the neutral zone.

[merlin]

Originally Posted by mbyron

Illegal men? What, no visas?

Yeah, that was funny! I think my mind was fried when I wrote that. Long day at work and this play to think about was too much.
I should have said ineligibles downfield.

[MI Official]

hmmmm. I can't find anything that says recovery AFTER touching by K behind the neutral zone in my case book. but if I use the logic of 'not advancing a muff' why would we not have K ball 1 and 10 at the spot of recovery since a legal kick has occured? The only snag I see in explaining is the pass was incomplete. had it been complet or he ran, would we not by in the right to rule the play was essentially over when K secured possession? just my opinion....

[bossman72]

Originally Posted by MI Official

but if I use the logic of 'not advancing a muff' why would we not have K ball 1 and 10 at the spot of recovery since a legal kick has occured?

There is no rule that says "you cannot advance a muff." The rule is you cannot advance a kick beyond the neutral zone.

However, BEHIND the NZ, anyone can advance the ball. 6-2-3

[whitehat]

I'm givng DJ_NV the trophy for coming up with what may just be the most mysterious play situation ever...anybody want to email a NF interpretor for a final ruling?

Just when I thought after 25 years of officiating and rules study I had it all figured out...(or much of it anyway between bouts of random forgetfullness and brain locks...)

[DJ_NV]

I'll certainly pass on the credit...this was the brainchild of one of our fellow members in my association. He was going to email it to the Fed as well. I will post here if he receives a response.

Thanks again to all for sparing a bit of their time and brainpower. I was hoping that someone might have been able to produce a casebook situation that I missed, but I just don't think it's there.

[bisonlj]

I've seen this play discussed several times on various boards (including this one I think) and we've discussed it at association meetings. I doubt it would ever happen though. I'm pretty sure the result of every discussion was 1st and 10 for A at the previous spot. The team in possession at the end of the down gets a new series since the ball was touched by R beyond the neutral zone. Even though it was an incomplete pass, K was in possession at the end of the down. On an incomplete legal forward pass, the next down is from the previous line of scrimmage. Assuming no ineligible receivers were downfield, A's ball 1st and 10 at the K40.

If you did have ineligible receivers down field, it would be 4th and 15 at the K35. R would take that penalty.

[Welpe]

Originally Posted by bisonlj

If you did have ineligible receivers down field, it would be 4th and 15 at the K35. R would take that penalty.

I disagree. Once R touches the scrimmage kick beyond the expanded neutral zone, the continuity of downs has been broken and whomever is in possession at the end of the down will be awarded a new series. The ineligible downfield penalty will be enforced from the previous spot however it will be 1st and 10 for K.


Rule 5-1-3f

ART. 3 . . . When a scrimmage down ends with the ball in the field of play or
out of bounds between the goal lines, a new series is awarded to:

f. The team in possession at the end of the down, if R is the first to touch a
scrimmage kick while it is beyond the expanded neutral zone, unless the
penalty is accepted for a non post-scrimmage kick foul which occurred
before the kick ended.

[Robert Goodman]

Originally Posted by Welpe

Rule 5-1-3f

ART. 3 . . . When a scrimmage down ends with the ball in the field of play or
out of bounds between the goal lines, a new series is awarded to:

f. The team in possession at the end of the down, if R is the first to touch a
scrimmage kick while it is beyond the expanded neutral zone, unless the
penalty is accepted for a non post-scrimmage kick foul which occurred
before the kick ended.

They should specify the scrimmage kick as the last kick during that down. Otherwise if instead of throwing a forward pass, A's punter had punted the ball again, and a player of A/K recovered the ball beyond the expanded neutral zone (a violation but not a foul IIRC), team A would get the ball at that spot, because R was first to touch a scrimmage kick, etc.

[Bullycon]

Originally Posted by Robert Goodman

They should specify the scrimmage kick as the last kick during that down. Otherwise if instead of throwing a forward pass, A's punter had punted the ball again, and a player of A/K recovered the ball beyond the expanded neutral zone (a violation but not a foul IIRC), team A would get the ball at that spot, because R was first to touch a scrimmage kick, etc.

Probably a good idea, but I don't know if it's necessary.

In your scenario, we have a spot of first touching on the second kick. R may take the ball at that spot.

[Robert Goodman]

Originally Posted by Bullycon

Probably a good idea, but I don't know if it's necessary.

In your scenario, we have a spot of first touching on the second kick. R may take the ball at that spot.

Aw, too bad, I was hoping we could complicate this one even more.