Penalty enforcement

[stewsport]

I have a question. Where is the basic spot of enforcement on a offensive holding penalty behind the line of scrimmageon a pass play? I know this is a loose ball play and the book says previous spot. But does the all but one principal apply here. Thanks

[kd0254]

Basic spot is the previous spot on a pass (loose ball) play (and the action that precedes it). If the foul for holding occured behind the basic spot and was by the offense, you enforce the penalty from the spot of the foul.


Hence - all but one. Fouls are enforced from the basic spot unless *it is a foul by the offense and it occurs behind the basic spot*.

Hope it helps.

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by stewsport

I have a question. Where is the basic spot of enforcement on a offensive holding penalty behind the line of scrimmage on a pass play? I know this is a loose ball play and the book says previous spot. But does the all but one principal apply here. Thanks

With a few exceptions, all-but-one applies to ALL fouls. Your question suggests that you might not be sure what "all but one" means.

You'll see lots of summaries (the previous poster provided one) that are all roughly equivalent. Most of these (including the ones taught to me) do not use the words "all but one," and so when I was learning I didn't get the principle for a while.

Here's my summary: "ALL fouls are enforced from the basic spot BUT ONE: fouls by the offense committed behind the basic spot are spot fouls."

So your question is confused: you don't want to ask "is the basic spot the previous spot or all but one?" The basic spot for loose ball plays is the previous spot, as you say. That doesn't change: only the spot of enforcement changes due to "all but one."

[whitehat]

Mb, nice clarification...

Assuming this question is answered I am wondering if anyone else out there feels the need for a change In NF rules pertianing to fouls by the offense behind the previous spot. Like your garden variety holding by A on a pass play, which could end up being about a 20 yard penatly when enforced from the spot according to the ABO.

I bring it up because I think the NCAA rule is much more reasonable in that it takes such fouls behind the previous spot and enforces them from the basic spot (previous spot in this case) instead of the spot of the foul.

Seems like we are "over penalizing" a bit the way we do it in NF.

thoughts?

[Rich]

Originally Posted by whitehat

Mb, nice clarification...

Assuming this question is answered I am wondering if anyone else out there feels the need for a change In NF rules pertianing to fouls by the offense behind the previous spot. Like your garden variety holding by A on a pass play, which could end up being about a 20 yard penatly when enforced from the spot according to the ABO.

I bring it up because I think the NCAA rule is much more reasonable in that it takes such fouls behind the previous spot and enforces them from the basic spot (previous spot in this case) instead of the spot of the foul.

Seems like we are "over penalizing" a bit the way we do it in NF.

thoughts?

I don't know if it's overpenalizing, but it sure can be a drive killer.

I'll go for this if, say, a face mask behind the line is enforced from the previous spot.

[Mike L]

Originally Posted by RichMSN

I don't know if it's overpenalizing, but it sure can be a drive killer.

I'll go for this if, say, a face mask behind the line is enforced from the previous spot.

Either that or also institute the number of defensive fouls that carry an auto first down like NCAA (and there's a lot).

[jemiller]

I've always tried to use the all but one penalty in a short reminder...Penalize them the worst. So if it is loose ball play and the foul is behind the previous spot, or LOS, they get it worst from the spot of the foul. I agree it is a killer penalty when it is 10 yds behind the LOS.

I think that there is some merit in the NCAA version of this rule. With the open hand blocking techniques done today, holding is going to happen. 10 yds seems plenty.

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by jemiller

I've always tried to use the all but one penalty in a short reminder...Penalize them the worst.

So if the defense commits a foul beyond the basic spot, you're enforcing it from there?

I have heard this from many officials in my area, and I guess I've never understood why some people can't apply the rules as written. "All but one" is already a short reminder (and shorter than yours), and it has the advantage of being more correct than yours (even it has exceptions).

[ppaltice]

I agree with mb. Paraphrasing the rules usually opens yourself up to misinterpretation.

[Robert Goodman]

Originally Posted by whitehat

Mb, nice clarification...

Assuming this question is answered I am wondering if anyone else out there feels the need for a change In NF rules pertianing to fouls by the offense behind the previous spot. Like your garden variety holding by A on a pass play, which could end up being about a 20 yard penatly when enforced from the spot according to the ABO.

I bring it up because I think the NCAA rule is much more reasonable in that it takes such fouls behind the previous spot and enforces them from the basic spot (previous spot in this case) instead of the spot of the foul.

Seems like we are "over penalizing" a bit the way we do it in NF.

I'll point out that Fed's enforcement spot is the more traditional one in this case among USAn codes. Before the 1970s, NFL & NCAA penalized it that way too. NFL changed first, I don't remember when NCAA followed.

You could say that if the passer could avoid an intentional grounding call yet produce an incompletion intentionally, if he saw the rusher coming after the hold or trip or whatever, then he could have avoided a loss anyway. I guess that's the philosophy of enforcing from the previous spot.

[bossman72]

Originally Posted by Robert Goodman

I guess that's the philosophy of enforcing from the previous spot.

I think it's more so holding calls don't turn into 15 yd penalties essentially when you penalize them from the spot of the foul behind the LOS. That's a drive killer as well, which they prob wanted to eliminate.

[Forksref]

There always seem to be some inequities to be found. Correct me if I am wrong, but in NCAA, let's say the QB is chased 15 yds behind the LOS and a lineman is flagged for holding at that spot. Will the foul be enforced from the previous LOS (only 10 yds lost)? That doesn't seem equitable.

I think the overall concept in FED is that yardage gained legally (prior to the spot on the field where there is a foul) shall be retained. Example: end of run = A40 and a hold is flagged at A35, therefore enforce from the 35 because yardage gained up to the 35 was gained "cleanly."

Last night we had 2 holding fouls on the offense that were enforced from the end of the run, which I think is a little unusual. The holds were beyond the end of the runs. In this case the concept is the ball was never advanced that far so why give the offense the benefit of those yards before marking off the foul?

Offsetting fouls seem inequitable sometimes too.

[Canned Heat]

We had one last night too. QB was scrambling for his life and his RG tackled a LB about 10 to 15 yards behind the LOS...which was their own 35 or so. By the time we got done, we were looking at a "half-the-distance" penalty that ended up around the 10 yard line. That was a killer. Although they were done already anyway (winning team had 48 by halftime...ended up 55-6).

[Robert Goodman]

Originally Posted by bossman72

I think it's more so holding calls don't turn into 15 yd penalties essentially when you penalize them from the spot of the foul behind the LOS. That's a drive killer as well, which they prob wanted to eliminate.

You're calling it a "15 yd penalty" on the basis of the distance the new spot gets left from the previous spot when the penalty was from 5 yds behind the previous spot -- but you're just arbitrarily choosing the previous spot as the point of comparison in calling it that. If the ball was held 5 yds. behind the spot of the foul at the time, you could call it a "5 yd penalty" relative to that spot. If the down ended with a completed pass and a tackle 60 yards downfield, how big do you call the penalty then?

Incidentally, at the time NFL & NCAA started to change these enforcements, illegal use of hands was a 15 yd. markoff from the 3-and-1 spot against either team in NCAA, or against the offense by NFL! They reduced the distance, made the spot less hurtful, and increased the permissible use of the hands, all in a few years.

[jemiller]

Oh I still know the all but one principle. I just try to use the penalize them the worst to think thru the enforcement, and focus on the play situation. I'm not making up rules for enforcement, just trying to do some personal things to help me with the proper enforcement. Jim