Holding

[LarryRc]

I believe in the philosophy of if its away from the play its not a hold. However I was the white hat tonight in a game that it was very clear that the kids were coached to grab the breast plate of the defense and "try" to hold them close. The problem was the defense was way stronger than the O line and they would create seperation every play making the holding very clear.

After the second hold in the first quarter the left tackle yells at his coach and says "the ref wont let me grab his breast plate, what do you want me to do?"

Long story short the umpire and I called 8 holds against them. The coach was outraged that we were taking it "personal" calling penaltys against his team. When I was close to his sideline he was chirping at me about the penalty discrepancy. 12 for his team and 3 for the other. I calmly explained that if his team wasnt holding almost every play the game would have been a good clean game. He didnt like my answer.

So my question is, is anybody else seeing this blocking technique being taught? and if so how are you calling it?

[mbyron]

Our game last night saw one team commit a good deal of holding, but nothing so deliberate. Also, the offending team didn't wait for 8 flags to knock it off!

[ajmc]

Originally Posted by mbyron

Our game last night saw one team commit a good deal of holding, but nothing so deliberate. Also, the offending team didn't wait for 8 flags to knock it off!

Teach a kid to block, and he'll eventually learn to hold, teach a kid to hold, and he'll NEVER learn to block. l

[Reffing Rev.]

A few weeks ago, we had a team that was much better than their opponents, the score was 45-8 and their coach was chirping that the penalty count was 15-1. He kept yelling and pretty soon the linesman on his sideline came in with a USC flag and said to me now its 16-1.

I don't know if its my eyes, or if its the game, but I will say I've seen a lot more holding this season than in the previous few years.

[Jim D.]

Originally Posted by LarryRc

I believe in the philosophy of if its away from the play its not a hold.

Actually, the more proper philosophy is that if it is away from the hold it still is a hold, but to make the game flow more smoothly you chose not to enforce it. Nothing makes it legal if it's away from the play, and we're giving the team a break by not calling it. If you need to call it because it's persistant, then feel free to do so. You don't owe the team a free pass on an illegal technique.

Originally Posted by Jim D.

Actually, the more proper philosophy is that if it is away from the hold it still is a hold, but to make the game flow more smoothly you chose not to enforce it. Nothing makes it legal if it's away from the play, and we're giving the team a break by not calling it. If you need to call it because it's persistant, then feel free to do so. You don't owe the team a free pass on an illegal technique.

I actually got chewed out by a white hat once in a freshman game for flagging a hold when the play was going towards the other side when I was the linesman. Ever since, I've come to see the philosophy is widespread, even at the college level.

[whitehat]

Some good discussion here. I think there is a misconception on the part of coaches who are telling their kids that if you hold tight and inside (grabbing defender by breastplate and keeping him close so there is no seperation) then the refs wont call it or its not a foul.

If I see this early in a game away from the play I talk to the kids and tell them they cannot hold. The routine response is "Im doing it tight and inside so its legal right?"

If I see it at the point of attack I flag it and when they try to explain what they were doing is legal... I explain that is is not legal..

Maybe coaches should be educated in clinics or pre-season meetings. Not sure how they get these strange rule ideas in their heads...

[refbuz]

Not seeing a lot of the technique your describing, but even if I did I would probably pass on those holds if they weren't point of attack fouls.

Of the 8 fouls how many were point of attack fouls?

Honestly, the only way I would call a hold that is not a point of attack hold is if it led to a take down.

[ajmc]

Originally Posted by whitehat

Maybe coaches should be educated in clinics or pre-season meetings. Not sure how they get these strange rule ideas in their heads...

Education is not going to help, these coaches know full well what they're teaching isn't right but they each it anyway. Back in the "dark ages" they called this "cheating", but now it's been rationalized into preventive maintenance or some other concept that relieves the teacher of all guilt for not being able to teach blocking correctly.

[phansen]

If the kids and coaches figure out that you are not going to call holding away from the ball, what do you think will happen? Every kid who is away from the ball will hold and be taught bytheir coach to hold. Are you sure the defender couldn't make the tackle on a cutback run or a reverse? What will you tell the kid being held?

I would guess that the defender being held would want to inflict some sort of vigilate justice if you tell him you're not calling holding away from the ball.
If your reasoning for not calling holding away from the play is that "he couldn't make the play anyway" then why does the blocker have to hold? The defender can't make the play, right?


IF he's holding away from the ball, sure, talk to him the first time. If he continues, call it like you're suppose to. Nowhere in the rulebook does it say to only call holding at the point of attack.

[Refsmitty]

I work with a linesman that puts more effort into avoiding calls and the controversy that goes with it than he does in calling a good game. For younger refs like me (experience wise) it is very difficult to see it and then try to decide whether or not to call it. I have decided that if I see it and it is a foul or a penalty - I'm coming out with yellow!

[mbyron]

I think that the crucial concept here is advantage/disadvantage. Although the rules don't use it, the traditions of enforcement that I observe at every level do. If a lineman is holding 10 yards from the point of attack, what advantage has he gained? None: that hold doesn't warrant a flag (though I might tell the lineman that he'd get a flag if the ball came his way).

So I guess I distinguish between the guy who fails to throw his flag simply to avoid controversy and the guy who holds his flag because the play didn't deserve one. Although neither has thrown a flag, only one has good judgment.

[LarryRc]

All the holds we called were either point of attack or pass block situations.
IF we called every hold in that game they would have had negative yards. It was ugly.

After having our meeting last night, we discovered there is another school using this technique. And they had several penaltys also.
Our commish. has sent a letter to all schools we service that if this technique is taught and we see it we will continue to be flagged.

Heres the kicker, the coach teaching this told us he was a official from another state for 20 years. Why do ex officials always make the worst coaches?

[whitehat]

Originally Posted by phansen

If the kids and coaches figure out that you are not going to call holding away from the ball, what do you think will happen? Every kid who is away from the ball will hold and be taught bytheir coach to hold. Are you sure the defender couldn't make the tackle on a cutback run or a reverse? What will you tell the kid being held?

I would guess that the defender being held would want to inflict some sort of vigilate justice if you tell him you're not calling holding away from the ball.
If your reasoning for not calling holding away from the play is that "he couldn't make the play anyway" then why does the blocker have to hold? The defender can't make the play, right?


IF he's holding away from the ball, sure, talk to him the first time. If he continues, call it like you're suppose to. Nowhere in the rulebook does it say to only call holding at the point of attack.

I see your concern, but I don't think any of us would tell the kid "we are not calling holding away from the ball."

It is, as Mbyron, says a matter of good judgement to do some preventive officiating and to throw flags that affect the play (i.e. give advantage or cause disadvantage).
One of the things we use to consider on my old college crew was "does the hold take away the feet of the opponent?" Once again just because a grab occurs does not mean it warrants a flag, even though a coach is screaming in your ear.
No doubt officiating takes a good knowledge of the rules and a good sense of judgement and what really is and is not affecting the play.

It may be easier to simply throw a flag every time we see something but it certainly takes the game away from the kids.

[ppaltice]

I know we have veered off the original topic a bit, but I want to say I agree with Phansen here. Sometimes we get too caught up in some unwritten guidelines like not calling holds away from the play, that we declare them a rule instead of a guideline.

I definitely think that the first time you see someone using an illegal blocking technique (holding) that isn't a safety issue and is away from the play, it is in everyone's best interest to warn the player involved. But don't let him continue to use this technique. If he ignores your warning, penalize him.