Rules RE: Declined Penalties

[ajmc]

Originally Posted by pjerwin

My question is: Is it appropriate for Team B to be given a second opportunity to accept or decline the penalties?

May I suggest a way to avoid any guilt feelings about allowing a team to make a second choice; When a team makes a decision that you consider insane (like declining an opponents foul to allow a score) presume that YOU gave a confusing (incomplete, mistaken, bad) explanation, and give yourself an opportunity to correct the situation by reviewing your explanation in a clearer fashion and allowing the captain to reconsider his choice in view of YOUR correction.

Should anyone object, simply advise them that your job is to provide complete and correct instructions and you will follow that objective for both teams, equally.

[pjerwin]

Ed Hickland

May I suggest a way to avoid any guilt feelings about allowing a team to make a second choice; When a team makes a decision that you consider insane (like declining an opponents foul to allow a score) presume that YOU gave a confusing (incomplete, mistaken, bad) explanation, and give yourself an opportunity to correct the situation by reviewing your explanation in a clearer fashion and allowing the captain to reconsider his choice in view of YOUR correction.

That given, at what point does a decision stand -- in any situation, not just this example? Does a decision stand once the offical signals or is it open until the next play is run? How long does a team have to "change its mind?"

[ajmc]

The Captain is entitled to make a ("a" as in one) decision once the options are presented to him properly and correctly. That's why it can be important to slow down an excited Captain and make sure he understands what's being explained to him and all the circumstances involved.

At the HS level you're dealing with someone 19 yrs old, or younger, and sometimes it takes a little effort to get the proper evel of attention to what you're explaining. If you're looking for, "one size that fits all", you're not going to find it on a HS football field.

[Rich]

I am not a believer in the "make the captain live with the stupid decision" camp. It will not endear you to anyone and, frankly, I find it bad for the game. That starts, with me, at the coin toss. I would never, never, NEVER allow someone to choose "kick" and saddle that team going on defense to start both halves unless after I explain it to them that's exactly what they wanted.

The latest NFHS version of the Bin Book talks about this and even suggests that in certain situations that the WH or wing should just get a decision from the coach. I completely agree with that. Last night we had 2 TDs with carryover penalties and since I was near the bench when reporting them, I just got the head coach's attention and verified he wanted the yardage on the kickoff.

We pulled them off with 6 minutes left and never finished. Regardless of whether it's a conference game, the rules clearly say that this decision is in the hands of the coaches and with their mutual decision we can end the game early. I don't care if there is a conference rule against that -- that's between the schools and the conference -- there's no NFHS (or state in my state) rule against it.

[pjerwin]

Hey, thanks, guys, for all the input.

Just one more request for clarification: regardless of how YOU would have handled the situation leading up to it and regardless of how stupid the decision was (remembering that at the time the coach on the sideline was on board with his team captain), once the decision was made and the official signaled it to the sidelines, do NFHS rules allow the team to then change their mind, and if they can, at what point is that oppotunity lost?

In fact, for clarity's sake, let's just take last night's scenario out of the picture. On ANY penalty call, at what point is a team's decision final?

[ajmc]

Originally Posted by pjerwin

, do NFHS rules allow the team to then change their mind, and if they can, at what point is that oppotunity lost?

In fact, for clarity's sake, let's just take last night's scenario out of the picture. On ANY penalty call, at what point is a team's decision final?

What part of, "The Captain is entitled to make a ( "a" as in one) decision once the options are presented to him properly and correctly" are you having trouble with?

"Decision" signifies the end of the process, not the beginning or some mid-point, which is why the preliminary explanation of the options should be clear, concise, accurate and complete. Once the decision is made, our job is to implement it. There is no review, no further discussion, no ammendments.

[ajmc]

Originally Posted by pjerwin

, do NFHS rules allow the team to then change their mind, and if they can, at what point is that oppotunity lost?

In fact, for clarity's sake, let's just take last night's scenario out of the picture. On ANY penalty call, at what point is a team's decision final?

What part of, "The Captain is entitled to make a ( "a" as in one) decision once the options are presented to him properly and correctly" are you having trouble with?

"Decision" signifies the end of the process, not the beginning or some mid-point, which is why the preliminary explanation of the options should be clear, concise, accurate, complete and perhaps most importantly understood. There is no time limit on assuring that the options are understood, but once the decision is made, our job is to implement it. There is no review, no further discussion, no ammendments.

[pjerwin]

Gee whiz -- sorry for being so thick, eh. I suppose the part that gave me pause was ajmc's "once the options are presented to him properly and correctly" and RichMSN's "I am not a believer in the 'make the captain live with the stupid decision' camp."

[Canned Heat]

Originally Posted by RichMSN

I am not a believer in the "make the captain live with the stupid decision" camp. It will not endear you to anyone and, frankly, I find it bad for the game. That starts, with me, at the coin toss. I would never, never, NEVER allow someone to choose "kick" and saddle that team going on defense to start both halves unless after I explain it to them that's exactly what they wanted.

The latest NFHS version of the Bin Book talks about this and even suggests that in certain situations that the WH or wing should just get a decision from the coach. I completely agree with that. Last night we had 2 TDs with carryover penalties and since I was near the bench when reporting them, I just got the head coach's attention and verified he wanted the yardage on the kickoff.

We pulled them off with 6 minutes left and never finished. Regardless of whether it's a conference game, the rules clearly say that this decision is in the hands of the coaches and with their mutual decision we can end the game early. I don't care if there is a conference rule against that -- that's between the schools and the conference -- there's no NFHS (or state in my state) rule against it.

Rich, sounds like you've done some games up in my neck of the woods (West Bend, Kewaskum, Campbellsport)...2 times in the last couple years I've had to break the coin toss huddle to get the coaches attention because their captains insisted on "kicking the ball" to start the game after winning the toss so they could have the ball starting off the 2nd half....rather than deferring.

[pjerwin]

There isn't A rule per se.

Ah, there it is! That's what I wanted to know. Thanks, HLin NC.

I do wonder, though, how many times officials find themselves in a circumstance like the one I described. No one seemed to realize (team B coach, team B players, or officiating team), until the inconsequential game announcer said it, that the actual outcome of declining the penalties would be the touchdown standing.

Now, another part RE: this scenario. The two penalties that vacate the TD are an undefined procedure call and holding. Given these two calls, what rationale could result in a loss of yardage AND loss of down?

[ajmc]

Originally Posted by pjerwin

Now, another part RE: this scenario. The two penalties that vacate the TD are an undefined procedure call and holding. Given these two calls, what rationale could result in a loss of yardage AND loss of down?

There are a couple of contradictions in your question. If 2, or more live ball fouls are committed by the same team, the offended team gets to choose which one will be enforced. That is considered a multiple foul.

Any single accepted live ball foul will negate the score and provide for some yardage penalty. Only Illegal Forward Pass, Intentional grounding, Illegal forward handing, Illegal touching and Offensive Pass Interference include a loss of down provision. For other live ball foul enforcements, the down is repeated for accepted penalties.

When there is any combination of live ball fouls (multiple or not), with additional dead ball fouls, one live ball foul may be enforced plus any, and each, dead ball foul if there is more than one.

Dead ball fouls happen after a play has ended, so in esence the play has completed before the foul occured, so the succeeding down will be the "next" down.

Both Illegal procedure (which may have been caused by an illegal formation of some sort) or holding are live ball fouls, so only one of them should be applied (offended team's choice). Both call for loss of yardage penalty but neither and neither call for a penalty of loss of down.

[Ed Hickland]

Originally Posted by pjerwin

Ed Hickland

That given, at what point does a decision stand -- in any situation, not just this example? Does a decision stand once the offical signals or is it open until the next play is run? How long does a team have to "change its mind?"

It is incumbent upon the R to gather all the information and present the choice to the captain. Personally, I try to get the captain near his head coach so that if the decision is complex the coach will make the final decision. There is no time to change their mind once they make that decision.

Again, many penalty options are straightforward and I tell the captains and the head coach I'm going to just give them a wink when its obvious.

If the penalty requires some knowledge of the team's strength and preference then I will give the option. Example, 4/7 at K's 45, K8 runs into the kicker, the ball is downed at R's 3, a 5 yard foul and replay the down 4/2 at midfield or R with their backs against their goal line at their 3, 1/10. K will have to make the decision and once it is made that is what we go with.