Need a little help....Interesting play

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by DrMooreReferee

Would someone who is really smart please look at rule 10-2-1 and then look at 10-2-3. And please tell me why I'm going crazy over this. I now sorta feel like the play I described above is just a DOUBLE FOUL, plain and simple. No options for anybody, just a double foul. When you read 10-2-1, it says ALL fouls committed by R are PSK fouls.... In the above example, both fouls are not PSK fouls, and I'm thinking that fact makes this a double foul with no options for either team.

I think that you're misreading 10-2-1. Here's the rule:

Originally Posted by 2009 Football Rule Book

It is a double foul if both teams commit fouls, other than unsportsmanlike
or nonplayer, during the same live-ball period in which:
a. There is no change of team possession, unless all fouls committed by R are
post-scrimmage kick fouls, or
b. There is a change of team possession, and the team in possession at the
end of the down fouls prior to final change of possession unless all fouls
committed by R are post-scrimmage kick fouls, or
c. There is a change of possession and the team in final possession accepts
the penalty for its opponent’s foul at any time during the down.
In (a), (b) or (c), the penalties cancel and the down is replayed.

Here's the general principle: for a down where there's a COP, it's a DF if the team that ends up with the ball committed its foul(s) before gaining possession. See 10.2.1 A and B.

Now here's the exception: if the team that ends up with the ball fouls before gaining possession AND all of the pre-possession fouls are PSK fouls, then it's not necessarily a DF. R can keep the ball in this case by declining the penalty on K. That's the force of the PSK exception. See 10.2.1 C.

For your OP, this would be a DF only if R accepts the penalty for K's foul. It would then meet the criteria given in clause (c). R can keep the ball by declining the penalty on K. K then has a choice of which R foul to penalize.

The exception applies here because all of R's pre-possession fouls are PSK fouls. R also committed a post-possession foul, but that's irrelevant to the DF principle stated above.

You were correct that we cannot penalize both live-ball fouls by R, since they occurred during the same down (though one was PSK and one was post-possession).

[DrMooreReferee]

what if we changed things up just a tad.

K's ball 4th and 5 at their own 40. K only has 6 men on the line and they punt the ball to R33, who catches the ball at his own 30. R72 holds K50 at the line of scrimmage. And then R17 blocks K10 in the back at midfield while the ball was in flight. R33 returned the ball to K's 20 and was tackled inbounds.

So, here we again have one foul on K and 2 on R. One of them is a PSK foul and the other is not. Is this a double foul?

If it is, explain to me the difference.

[ppaltice]

R holding on the line is not a PSK foul, it is a loose ball foul. Here we have a double foul and we must replay the down.

See 2-16-2h3. For PSK, the foul must be beyone the NZ expanded.

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by ppaltice

R holding on the line is not a PSK foul, it is a loose ball foul. Here we have a double foul and we must replay the down.

See 2-16-2h3. For PSK, the foul must be beyond the NZ expanded.

That's right. In the new play R has committed a pre-possession foul that is not a PSK foul. Therefore, that foul does not qualify for the PSK exception. The general rule for DFs applies, so it's a double foul, replay the down.