Love kick plays....

[DrMooreReferee]

During a punt, R1 retreats to his 4 yard line where he catches a scrimmage kick and his momentum carries him into his end zone where he fumbles the ball out into the field of play where K1 muffs the ball back into the end zone where R1 falls on it. During the kick, R2 held K2 at R's 18 yard line. RULING: Since the result of the play is a touchback, the PSK foul will be enforced from the all but one principal. Basic Spot is the 20, foul at the 18, so it will be R's ball 1st and 10 at R's 9 yard line.

OK, everyone tell me if this is right or wrong.

[Warrenkicker]

I believe this is wrong. The kick ended at the 4. Because R is the next to put the ball in play it is a PSK foul. The spot of the foul is the 18 and the end of the kick is the 4. Penalize half the distance from the 4 and it is R's ball first and 10 at the 2.

[mbyron]

I agree with Warrenkicker. The momentum exception does not apply to the OP because R1 fumbled the ball before it became dead in the endzone. The post-scrimmage spot for PSK fouls is the end of the kick, in this case R's 4. R's ball, 1/10 @ R's 2.

Had R1 NOT fumbled the ball, the momentum exception would apply. But since there was a foul, the basic spot would still be the end of the kick (not the 20 due to the touchback), and enforcement would be exactly the same.

So the fumble in the endzone is a red herring.

[DrMooreReferee]

Excellent job guys!!! Can't fool you.... but I thought this was a nasty little question.

[Reffing Rev.]

Assuming K1's muff is a new force...

If the fumble were still the force? safety. Penalty probably declined.

[ppaltice]

I agree with Reffing Rev, we need to know if K supplied a new force to put the ball back into the EZ. Definitely if the penalty is accepted, the penalty is from the 4 (as that is the basic spot when the penalty occurred). But, if we rule the fumble from the field of field of play back into the EZ was the result of R (and not a new force by K), we have a safety.

[dalewalk]

Sorry folks, I'm new at this so forgive what might be a rookie question. Why wouldn't this be an immediate Touchback once the ball and R crossed the goal line? Isn't it killed right there and penalty marked off from 20?

[Welpe]

Good question. It is not a touch back because it was not a kick that crossed the goal line. Once the R player possessed the kick, it was no longer a kick and instead became a running play.

Check out the Rule 2 definition of kicks:

2-24 Kicks:

ART. 2 . . . A kick ends when a player gains possession or when the ball becomes dead while not in player possession.

Then look at Rule 6-3-1:

ART. 1 . . . It is a touchback if any free kick or scrimmage kick:
a. Which is not a scoring attempt or which is a grounded three-point fieldgoal
attempt, breaks the plane of R’s goal line, unless R chooses a spot of
first touching by K.

[VALJ]

Originally Posted by dalewalk

Sorry folks, I'm new at this so forgive what might be a rookie question. Why wouldn't this be an immediate Touchback once the ball and R crossed the goal line? Isn't it killed right there and penalty marked off from 20?

I agree with Welpe - great question. He quoted the rule correctly.

Remember, a kick is a kick until the play is over or until someone possesses it. Once it's possessed, if it comes loose, it's a fumble.

[dalewalk]

I guess the momentum part led me to believe it would be a TB if he was falling back into the EZ by momentum. It appeared that he didn't go in deliberately.

[Welpe]

The momentum rule doesn't cause the ball to become dead in the endzone. The momentum rule applies only IF the ball becomes dead in the endzone. For example, during a scrimmage kick, R22 catches the kick at the 4 and his momentum carries him into the endzone. Once in the endzone, he slips and falls with the ball in possession, which makes the ball dead in his possession in the endzone. At this point, you would have a touchback (instead of a safety).

8-5-2 is your reference.

[bisonlj]

Originally Posted by Welpe

The momentum rule doesn't cause the ball to become dead in the endzone. The momentum rule applies only IF the ball becomes dead in the endzone. For example, during a scrimmage kick, R22 catches the kick at the 4 and his momentum carries him into the endzone. Once in the endzone, he slips and falls with the ball in possession, which makes the ball dead in his possession in the endzone. At this point, you would have a touchback (instead of a safety).

8-5-2 is your reference.

No, you don't have a touchback. You have a ball put in play at the spot of the catch which is the 4 yard line. This would normally be a safety but the momentum "exception" give R the ball at the 4 instead.