Can an official besides the WH eject players/coaches if he sees fit?

[KWH]

Brandon-
I think you are missing their point. You have come on this forum and ask alot of questions and that is a great way to learn. But you should also welcome critisism! So you just made two comment that need to be addressed:

1) "Another thing that seems to me to be not professional is not enforcing a penalty just because there are :10 left in the game and the WH is the one choosing not to enforce it."
Depending on the score and the flow of the game unless these are safety related fouls I would say in a vast amount of situations it may be best to pass on these and let the game end.

2) "Im sorry if you disagree but Im a strong supporter of the term "rules are rules" and we are being assigned to and paid for that game to enforce those rules. If your not going to enforce a penalty just because you want to leave a little bit earlier then why are you out there to begin with? If you don't want to be there then don't come. "
Brandon, when I started officiating football 31 years ago I was as gung-ho as you. I read that rule book and I became a "Rule Book Charlie!" I looked for fouls and by god I found them! I called everything that moved and I was justified in doing so because it was in the book, AND, in fact, I could show you where it is in the book! Sometimes those old, slow, crew members (who should of retired years ago) would laugh or roll their eyes when I would throw a flag. Crap, these guys sure missed alot. I remember games where I had 20 or more flags and these old farts had maybe 1 or 2 or NONE! I could never understand why our assigner would constantly stick me with these clowns every saturday. In fact we would talk about these old farts in our 1st and 2nd year classes and about how many fouls they missed. When we compared our notes it was just amazing how much these old guys would miss.

Then one day one of those old farts (name of Les) sat me down, told me pretty much to shut up and just listen.
He said alot of things but three things are still stuck in my head today:

1) Anytime you LOOK for fouls you will likely miss the big one that happens right in front of you.
2) You can live by the rule book, AND you can die by the rule book!
3) Let the game/level of competition/score dictate what needs to be called and what doesn't need to be called. And, If it doesn't need to be called, pass on it, but let the player know you saw it.

A few years later, Les added number 4
4) If after a game, the winning coach says "you did a great job", or the losing coach says "you guys were terrible" throw them out like yesterdays paper. If, however after the game, the losing coach lets you know you did a good job, pat yourself on the back.
(Les never told me what to think if the winning coach said "you guys were terrible", I figured that one out on my own!)

Today, I am quite proud to say I have become one of those old farts! And Brandon, you don't know what I would give to work one more game with Les. but, alas, the good lord took him to a higher level game just a little bit ahead of the rest of us.
(I have conviced myself however that sky-box seats are included in the package.)

Keep asking questions, it is the only way to learn. But perhaps consider the answer a little longer before you "Cut them to the quick"!

Best wishes

[Brandon Kincer]

Originally Posted by KWH

Brandon-
I think you are missing their point. You have come on this forum and ask alot of questions and that is a great way to learn. But you should also welcome critisism! So you just made two comment that need to be addressed:

1) "Another thing that seems to me to be not professional is not enforcing a penalty just because there are :10 left in the game and the WH is the one choosing not to enforce it."
Depending on the score and the flow of the game unless these are safety related fouls I would say in a vast amount of situations it may be best to pass on these and let the game end.

2) "Im sorry if you disagree but Im a strong supporter of the term "rules are rules" and we are being assigned to and paid for that game to enforce those rules. If your not going to enforce a penalty just because you want to leave a little bit earlier then why are you out there to begin with? If you don't want to be there then don't come. "
Brandon, when I started officiating football 31 years ago I was as gung-ho as you. I read that rule book and I became a "Rule Book Charlie!" I looked for fouls and by god I found them! I called everything that moved and I was justified in doing so because it was in the book, AND, in fact, I could show you where it is in the book! Sometimes those old, slow, crew members (who should of retired years ago) would laugh or roll their eyes when I would throw a flag. Crap, these guys sure missed alot. I remember games where I had 20 or more flags and these old farts had maybe 1 or 2 or NONE! I could never understand why our assigner would constantly stick me with these clowns every saturday. In fact we would talk about these old farts in our 1st and 2nd year classes and about how many fouls they missed. When we compared our notes it was just amazing how much these old guys would miss.

Then one day one of those old farts (name of Les) sat me down, told me pretty much to shut up and just listen.
He said alot of things but three things are still stuck in my head today:

1) Anytime you LOOK for fouls you will likely miss the big one right in from of you.
2) You can live by the rule book, AND you can die by the rule book!
3) Let the game/level of competition/score dictate what needs to be called and what doesn't need to be called. And, If it doesn't need to be called, pass on it, but let the player know you saw it.

A few years later, Les added number 4
4) If after a game, the winning coach says "you did a great job", or the losing coach says "you guys were terrible" throw them out like yesterdays paper. If, however after them game the losing coach says you did a good job pat yourself on the back.
(Les never told me what to do if the winning coach said "you guys were terrible", I figured that one out on my own!)

Today, I am quite proud to say I have become one of those old farts! And Brandon, you don't know what I would give to work one more game with Les. but, alas, the good lord took him to a higher level game just a little bit ahead of the rest of us.
(I have conviced myself however that sky-box seats are included in the package.)

Keep asking questions, it is the only way to learn. But perhaps consider the answer a little longer before you "Cut them to the quick"!

Best wishes

Similar sittuation has happened to me just in my first year of rec. A guy named Dan worked a few games with me and he was a certified official. He tought me everything from where to be on the field to how to toss the ball to the umpire. The first game I worked with him I blew an inadvertant whistle and he told me to keep my whistle out of my mouth unles the play was on my side of the field. I thought he was a jerk but I was determined to learn so I started asking him questions and the more I got to know him the more I learned. Although a better outcome than that of yours I will be able to work more games with him. I call him every now and then to ask him questions. Im not offended by critisism at all. Believe me I love to learn the easy or hard way just as long as im learning you'll never hear me say a word.

[waltjp]

Originally Posted by Brandon Kincer

The first game I worked with him I blew an inadvertant whistle and he told me to keep my whistle out of my mouth unles the play was on my side of the field.

Bad advice. Only bad things can happen if you keep the whistle in your mouth during a live ball.

[Brandon Kincer]

Originally Posted by waltjp

Bad advice. Only bad things can happen if you keep the whistle in your mouth during a live ball.

I think what he really ment is don't even tempt to blow it if the play wasn't on my side. I always have my whistle in my mouth before the play even begins.

[Mike L]

Brandon,

what waltjp is saying & what I think you are not getting is it doesn't matter which side of the field the play is on, there is no reason to have your whistle in your mouth unless you intend to blow it right then.

[ajmc]

For what it's worth, Brandon, there really isn't any need to instantaneously blow a whistle, anywhere. As others have suggested, the only time a whistle kills a play is when it's inadvertent. Action kills a play and the whistle simply announces that the action has taken place.

When a player false starts or encroaches on the NZ, even so close to the snap that the play goes off, the movement or encroachment is what kills the action, so even if the play starts, the ball is dead and a slightly delayed whistle just tells everyone, who may have started, to stop.

Players are responsible to stop, when the action kills a play whether or not the whistle sounds. Coaches who instruct players to, "hit someone until you hear a whistle", are simply WRONG, and way behind the times.

The one absolute about whistles; no matter how hard you suck on one, you can't get the tweet back.

[KWH]

Remember Brandon, their only two times in NFHS football when a whistle correctly kills a live ball play in progress:
1) During a 1-point try attempt, when it becomes apparent the drop kick or place kick will not score.
2) During a 2-point try attempt, when B secures possession.

If a whistle is sounded during any other live ball action and "Lucy, there's some splainin' to do!"

[JugglingReferee]

Originally Posted by Brandon Kincer

Please help me out on this. Ive been a referee for two years now and plan to get certified this season.

CANADIAN RULING:

Absolutely. In fact, I do not believe that the Referee has the authority to overrule this call, either.

It should be noted, however, that the R, or the CC, should be in a position to provide input where needed - so if a first year official ejects someone, the R or CC should be forthcoming to gather info to make sure that such a penalty should in fact be exercised.

[Robert Goodman]

Originally Posted by KWH

Remember Brandon, their only two times in NFHS football when a whistle correctly kills a live ball play in progress:
1) During a 1-point try attempt, when it becomes apparent the drop kick or place kick will not score.
2) During a 2-point try attempt, when B secures possession.

No, not even in either of those cases. The facts that produce the dead ball precede the whistle.

[KWH]

Robert,
Not gonna splitt hairs with you. But, while technically you are correct, typically speaking, a whistle is required to shut down the action. This requirement does not occur in any other situation other than the two I listed.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by KWH

Robert,
Not gonna splitt hairs with you. But, while technically you are correct, typically speaking, a whistle is required to shut down the action. This requirement does not occur in any other situation other than the two I listed.

Required? No more so than declaring a runner down a split second before he fumbles.

[ajmc]

We have to be careful we don't explain ourselves into an unexpected problem. Every whistle we blow is AFTER we've seen or judged some sort of action to have already occurred.

Life (as it applies to football), and especially rules, are intended to be clear as in "black or white, "on or off".

[Brandon Kincer]

I dont want to seem like a jerk to you guys. Im excited to learn. I just dont want a guy that is expierenced who I COULD be learning from just tryin to make me into an example of his authority. Im out there to make judgement calls to the best of my ability and thats what I want to do. On a better note: I would like to announce to the people that have replied to my posts on this board and are honestly tryin to help me out that I have passed my state exam for football and will be recieveing my patch sometime soon. I can now call myself a certified official for football and I am very proud to be behind a state patch this year!

[mikesears]

Originally Posted by Brandon Kincer

I dont want to seem like a jerk to you guys. Im excited to learn. I just dont want a guy that is expierenced who I COULD be learning from just tryin to make me into an example of his authority. Im out there to make judgement calls to the best of my ability and thats what I want to do. On a better note: I would like to announce to the people that have replied to my posts on this board and are honestly tryin to help me out that I have passed my state exam for football and will be recieveing my patch sometime soon. I can now call myself a certified official for football and I am very proud to be behind a state patch this year!

Congrats Brandon. I hope you can find someone to be a good mentor and you can learn a lot of good stuff from them. Welcome to the world of the patched official.

[Berkut]

Originally Posted by Brandon Kincer

I dont want to seem like a jerk to you guys. Im excited to learn. I just dont want a guy that is expierenced who I COULD be learning from just tryin to make me into an example of his authority. Im out there to make judgement calls to the best of my ability and thats what I want to do. On a better note: I would like to announce to the people that have replied to my posts on this board and are honestly tryin to help me out that I have passed my state exam for football and will be recieveing my patch sometime soon. I can now call myself a certified official for football and I am very proud to be behind a state patch this year!

Congratulations!

The thing to remember is this:

Officials are not special. As a group, we exhibit the exact same group dynamics and spread of competency as any other group. You will run into some bad officials, who make bad decisions for the wrong reasons. You will run into some great officials who really "get it" and understand how to do their job.

And you will run into the vast majority of officials who fall somewhere in between.

The trick isn't in making sure you are "right", as opposed to the boneheads you sometimes will run into. In fact, the best thing you can do about them is to forget them to the extent that it causes you *any* distress. It isn't worth getting worked up over them - their only value is as an object lesson about what not to do. And what you ought not to do is almost never really about some particular mechanic or even particular issue - it is about attitude and ego.

The real trick, the useful skill, is identifying those few exceptional officials, then stealing from them outrageously so you can become one of them. And the thing you will notice about them, once you figure out how to identify them, is that what sets them apart more often than not is their attitude and their ability to be self-critical.

JMO, of course. Best of luck in your continuing career.