Flag Borders

[MrUmpire]

Originally Posted by ljudge

I read the rather lengthy post regarding american flags. When I joined the college ranks in 2006 I learned from another official that gold bordered flags are for "Active Military Only." And, this excludes those even in reserves.

As has been pointed out already, this is not cottect. Also, a strict interperetation of the U.S. flag code would seem to exclude sports officials from "legally" wearing the flag on their uniform.

So, as one has suggested previously, as long as you're breaking the flag code, who cares what border you use on the flag?

[Jim D.]

Now every politician wears a flag pin on his or her lapel. The ruling on the flag states that "no part of the flag should be used as a costume or athletic uniform" (ie. no pants made of flag stripes etc.) The wearing of a flag patch is not the same as wearing part of a flag.

If a flag patch is worn, military regulations require that "The full-color U.S. flag cloth replica is worn so that the star field faces forward, or to the flag’s own right. When worn in this manner, the flag is facing to the observer’s right, and gives the effect of the flag flying in the breeze as the wearer moves forward.

The rule dates back to the Army's early history, when both mounted cavalry and infantry units would designate a standard bearer, who carried the Colors into battle. As he charged, his forward momentum caused the flag to stream back. Since the Stars and Stripes are mounted with the canton closest to the pole, that section stayed to the right, while the stripes flew to the left."

Originally Posted by Jim D.

Now every politician wears a flag pin on his or her lapel. The ruling on the flag states that "no part of the flag should be used as a costume or athletic uniform" (ie. no pants made of flag stripes etc.) The wearing of a flag patch is not the same as wearing part of a flag.

Did this quote bring a mischeivous smile to anyone's face? The thought of policiticians and costumes in the same statement made me laugh.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Jim D.

The rule dates back to the Army's early history, when both mounted cavalry and infantry units would designate a standard bearer, who carried the Colors into battle. As he charged, his forward momentum caused the flag to stream back. Since the Stars and Stripes are mounted with the canton closest to the pole, that section stayed to the right, while the stripes flew to the left."

Unless you were standing on the standard bearer's left....

Around here, the flags are on our left sleave.

I, too, had heard about the gold for military only, but I'd heard it was for veterans. I don't know where it was written, though.

[Welpe]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

I, too, had heard about the gold for military only, but I'd heard it was for veterans. I don't know where it was written, though.

I wouldn't be surprised if it is simply a piece of military lore. One of those things that "everybody knows", you know, kind of like over the back and reaching in being fouls.

I do want to apologize, ljudge, my original post was rather snarky. I didn't intend to be that brash. Sorry.

[Jim D.]

For what it's worth I did find a web site that contains a US Flag Manual -it's done by the Military Salute Project. It covers the wearing of flag patches and pins, but does not have any discussion of whether a white border or gold border is preferred. However it does have pictures of flag patches which are "officially authorized reditions of the the US Flag" and "have precedence over all othe patches and pins" and all of those pictured have gold borders.

[ajmc]

Originally Posted by MrUmpire

As has been pointed out already, this is not cottect. Also, a strict interperetation of the U.S. flag code would seem to exclude sports officials from "legally" wearing the flag on their uniform.

So, as one has suggested previously, as long as you're breaking the flag code, who cares what border you use on the flag?

As a group, we (officials) may naturally lean a little further towards exact compliance with existing rules, but a (negative) definition of bureaucracy defines it as, "when existing rules come in direct conflict with common sense, bureaucracy dictates blindly following the existing rule rather than reason the objective."

It's reasonable to presume that the primary objective of the U. S. Flag Code is to assure the American Flag is treated with the respect it has so rightly earned. Examples are shown as guidelines to present an idea of type actions are not allowed (Much like NF:9.4 provides limited examples of what type actions constitute Illegal Personal Contact).

Following the tragedy of 9/11/01 the NFHS and several State Associations, out of a feeling of deep respect and appreciation for our Armed Services, who currently stand in "harm's way" on our behalf, designated it's members authority (and in many cases instructions) to wear a small American Flag as a specific sign of respect in observance of that event and appreciation of the ongoing service rendered by our military.

Suggesting, somehow, that this overt gesture of respect and appreciation constitutes a violation of the U.S. Flag Code, I submit, is much more likely a misunderstanding of the primary objectives of the U.S. Flag Code.

[Welpe]

Originally Posted by ajmc

Suggesting, somehow, that this constitutes a violation of the U.S. Flag Code, I submit, is much more likely a misunderstanding of the primary objectives of the U.S. Flag Code.

Something akin to the "spirit of the rules"? Sorry, I had to.

[ajmc]

Originally Posted by Welpe

Something akin to the "spirit of the rules"? Sorry, I had to.

You're exactly correct, but more importantly, like garlic, going overboard with something that's usually very beneficial, can ruin a meal or produce a disaster.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by ajmc

Following the tragedy of 9/11/01 the NFHS and several State Associations, out of a feeling of deep respect and appreciation for our Armed Services, who currently stand in "harm's way" on our behalf, designated it's members authority (and in many cases instructions) to wear a small American Flag as a specific sign of respect in observance of that event and appreciation of the ongoing service rendered by our military.

Can you show a reference where NF took a direct position on this? And all most states did was make the flag optional for officials. I do not know anyone that made it a requirement. But if you read the actual code, officials do not fit into the equation. And based on what I have read most people are not wearing the flag properly if you believe what borders are required or not.

Peace

[Adam]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Can you show a reference where NF took a direct position on this? And all most states did was make the flag optional for officials. I do not know anyone that made it a requirement. But if you read the actual code, officials do not fit into the equation. And based on what I have read most people are not wearing the flag properly if you believe what borders are required or not.

Peace

The borders don't bother me, I don't think that's written anywhere; and I've heard different standards on those. Not that it "bothers" me, but the part that's "against the code" is wearing it on the left sleeve. It should be worn on the right, if it's worn.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

The borders don't bother me, I don't think that's written anywhere; and I've heard different standards on those. Not that it "bothers" me, but the part that's "against the code" is wearing it on the left sleeve. It should be worn on the right, if it's worn.

We can only wear the flag on the right shoulder because a state patch is on the left shoulder. The common flag worn (in football mind you) is the golden bordered flag. I was told (but never shown) that this was not proper because of the way the flag is going if there was a pole attached to the flag. Apparently the flag is "retreating" instead of going forward (in the same direction you are walking for example). I honestly do not know the answer to this, but this is more reason I do not put a flag on any other officiating uniform. It seems like people cannot agree on which is proper and my state has not told us either way which is allowed or not.

Peace

[DonInKansas]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I honestly do not know the answer to this, but this is more reason I do not put a flag on any other officiating uniform. It seems like people cannot agree on which is proper and my state has not told us either way which is allowed or not.

Peace

This is the same reason I don't ear a flag as well. It seems that wearing a flag poses more problems than choosing not to, so I don't.

[ajmc]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Can you show a reference where NF took a direct position on this? And all most states did was make the flag optional for officials. I do not know anyone that made it a requirement. But if you read the actual code, officials do not fit into the equation. And based on what I have read most people are not wearing the flag properly if you believe what borders are required or not.

Peace

Be honest, would it make any difference to you if I had Betsy Ross swear an affidavit? The best reference I have, which is the only one I need, is that my chapter interpreter, back in 2001, informed our chapter that the NYS Association had decided that all member officials would wear a small American flag in the center of their back, 2-2.5 inches below the collar for varsity football games, to show respect and appreciation for the American nation and the military who would stand in it's defense.

To this day, we took him at his word. There were no investigations, no wrtten orders, no verifications we all just went along with the program, as he explained it. To most, it seemed like a good idea and still does. At that time, and since, it has caused zero problems in my chapter, that I'm aware of. Each year our Secretary/ Treasurer has a supply of little flags he sells to members (for new shirts) at about $2.-$2.5/flag.

I don't agree that this display violates any intention of any flag code, and reject any suggestion that such a display is disrespectful, because I don't believe any disrespect was intended nor does anyone wearing these patches intend them to be a sign of disrespect.

I'm not aware of any regulations regarding wearing the flag that were written in response to 9/11/01, and that all regulations written before that date obviously did not consider that event, so do not relate to it.

I have absolutely no intention of, or interest in, persuading you to alter your perception of how, where or when to wear an American flag on your uniform, or person, nor do I have any interest in your interpretations of rules governing how, where or when I choose to wear, or display, one.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by ajmc

Be honest, would it make any difference to you if I had Betsy Ross swear an affidavit? The best reference I have, which is the only one I need, is that my chapter interpreter, back in 2001, informed our chapter that the NYS Association had decided that all member officials would wear a small American flag in the center of their back, 2-2.5 inches below the collar for varsity football games, to show respect and appreciation for the American nation and the military who would stand in it's defense.

To this day, we took him at his word. There were no investigations, no wrtten orders, no verifications we all just went along with the program, as he explained it. To most, it seemed like a good idea and still does. At that time, and since, it has caused zero problems in my chapter, that I'm aware of. Each year our Secretary/ Treasurer has a supply of little flags he sells to members (for new shirts) at about $2.-$2.5/flag.

I don't agree that this display violates any intention of any flag code, and reject any suggestion that such a display is disrespectful, because I don't believe any disrespect was intended nor does anyone wearing these patches intend them to be a sign of disrespect.

I'm not aware of any regulations regarding wearing the flag that were written in response to 9/11/01, and that all regulations written before that date obviously did not consider that event, so do not relate to it.

I have absolutely no intention of, or interest in, persuading you to alter your perception of how, where or when to wear an American flag on your uniform, or person, nor do I have any interest in your interpretations of rules governing how, where or when I choose to wear, or display, one.

Honestly, I do not care what others do. I do not wear one outside of my football crew. And if my crew said tomorrow “Take them off,” I would not object. It just is not something I want to fight either way because it really has nothing to do with what I am wearing the uniform for. And 9-11 did not mean the same thing to everyone in this country (I know that is hard to believe for you). And if you were patriotic before, why do you need a flag to represent this after the fact when we fought a war in Europe and other events that involved our country and military. I think you need to get people to honor the flag during the National Anthem first before I worry about what I have on a non-governmental uniform. If I was a Police officer or solider I would have absolutely no objection to wearing a flag. I am glad this is an option and I use that option when I can.

Peace