Possible rules changes for 2009

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by ajmc

Now, you're just being silly. Do you really expect me to wallow through all the garbage that's been laid out to prove to you where the smell comes from. Not likely.

Then why did you respond if what I am saying is garbage?

Originally Posted by ajmc

Let's look at these "sins" you're so positive and worked up about. "Kurt is selling A-11 materials after claiming he was not" What you decry as being so negative as "selling", might just as accurately be seen as distributing and recurring the cost of doing so. KB obviously believes (right or wrong) in his idea, and has every right to try and promote it and try and persuade others to accept and believe it.

I did not say I was worked up about anything. But your entire purpose the last few weeks was to suggest that people were being libelous or slanderous against Kurt based on a pack mentality. There is nothing wrong with Kurt selling anything, I am in a sales business. But I am also not denying that fact and never have and never will. Kurt claimed he was purely trying to change the game for the better and it was proven that was not the case. All you have to do is a Google search and you will see many products that Kurt is associated with to sell this offense as apart of his claiming the offense has been "approved."

Originally Posted by ajmc

"Kurt lied about approval with the NF for this offense when there was no such approval by the NF. Seems like a really insignificant semantics argument. Is suggesting a declaration that something is "not illegal" a whole lot different than being "approved", possibly a poor choice of words, but does it make ANY real difference?

I am sorry, but when you tell people that have insight on this that the NF has approved your offense and after you first make those statements several states outlaw the offense and vow to change current NF Rules, that is a misrepresentation of many facts. And the only evidence you can show for that approval is one quote the Chairperson of the Committee. But you exclude all the other comments from current and past committee members that clearly are not giving their "approval" to your offense. Then you are writing letters or preparing information for the committee for something that has already been "approved." I think Kurt thinks we are all stupid when he does not realize (like a lot of coaches do not know) how rules are changed. Look at every sports specific board and there is talk about new rules long before the committee actually meets to change anything. This comment alone took away a lot of Kurt's credibility and you do not have to take my word for it. Just look at the posts Kurt has taken place in.

Originally Posted by ajmc

"Kurt has repeated these lies on this website or other websites." Without a lot more specifics, I can't comment, other than to suggest very often the word "lie" is a really poor choice of words and a n excessive exaggeration. You might consider other words like; mistake, exaggeration, misunderstanding, stretch, spin that don't include the connotation of a deliberate and intentional effor to deceive or mislead.

You can look directly at the NF Website Discussion boards. This topic was discussed a lot over the last couple of years. Some of the most discussed topics involved this offense and Kurt took part in just about all of them. And many people here are some of the same people that read the same comments on the other board.

Originally Posted by ajmc

"Kurt claims that officials all over the country approve of the offense." After spending some time on this, and other forums, I might question whether there is ANYTHING "officials all over the country approve of". Would this observation be an exaggeration? Yes, but would it have misled any official, who has been awake for the past 2 years, doubtful, so what difference does it make (advantage/disadvantage)?

The difference it makes is you claim that what we have said and what I have said was out of line. IF you tell a story and it is found out to be not true, I think it is my right or anyone's right to state that you have lied or tried to mislead everyone with information. And the people that have been involved in these discussions have come from all over the world (not just country BTW). And when people in completely different jurisdictions have openly discussed their opposition to this offense and the rules used to allow it, then states follow by making the offense illegal, it is a little disingenuous to keep repeating as if officials all over the place have not seen any problems with your offense. And I have worked the offense and I do see this as possible problem for officials. And when I worked the offense I was working with 3 other state final officials and two of us later in the year became state final officials, so the officials I was working with had a lot of experience and understanding of the game. And the school that I witnessed running the offense, did not use the offense at their lower levels for some reason. And rules are not just for the varsity level, they are for all levels. It does matter when you make claims about who feels what and who they are. Kurt even misrepresented the article in which myself, a NF Committee member were also quoted in our comments as if to suggest that we "approved" or that there would not be review of the rules in the future. All things if you simply do a Google search are not hard to find.

Originally Posted by ajmc

Be honest, you can stack these, and other, transgressions on top of each other and they pose the same hazard as tripping over a sheet of paper. The indisputable fact is there is nothing that has been stated, suggested or inferred that amounts to anything more than someone trying to promote an idea, he apparently believes in.

This is not about belief. What I just references is not about belief, those are facts. And the fact that you have yet to show one comment that I made or anyone else made that we were untrue is telling. That is all people have been saying and you accused them of being unfair or unprofessional to make such claims.

Originally Posted by ajmc

It may very well be an idea that is wrong, an idea that may yet be judged not in the best interest of the game and ultimately prohibited. All that would prove is that it was a bad idea. The personal attacks, negative remarks about integrity and dishonesty, accusations of lying and deliberately trying to deceive, with assessments and claimsthat were so slanted no official on the planet could be misled by them, were all over blown, grossly exaggerated and excessive.

Once again, I do not care about best interest of the game or if the offense is legal or not. As someone said, I was very open minded about this from the beginning and tended to be one of the voices that had little problem with the efforts of Kurt. But when he stated lying about facts and statements made by others, he lost me big time. If the NF chooses to not change the rule, I do not think it is going to make that big of a difference, because states will still likely outlaw the offense (more might follow) and I doubt I will see many teams where I am from try it or risk their entire season on such an unproven offense.

Originally Posted by ajmc

Sorry Rut, but when the blood first hit the water, several of you lost control of your emotions and went in for the kill, which was totally unnecessary and added nothing to the discussion. All this huffing and puffing and demands for evidence is not going to wipe the blood off your chin. Intentional or not, all this bullying, attempt to coerce or intimidate and insistence on turning every minor detail and phrase into it's worst imaginable conspiracy has simply gotten out of hand. It is what it is, and how you deal with it is not going to change what it is.

This conversation has been going on much longer than you even know. And when this conversation first started (well over a year ago) there were many people that objectively looked at the offense and what it brought. And officials were trying to figure out the premise and the rules that covered it. What you think you know, was long after Kurt lied, misrepresented and commented on things that were clearly not true or clearly proven to not be true. And you still have not shown one thing I have said that suggested that I have misrepresented facts or said anything that was slightly true.

And you are just like Kurt, when asked for specifics we cannot get a straight answer. But you have continually called me names all because I want you to prove what you say. And the main reason I keep responding to you, because I know you are not going to show a single thing that suggest I was out of line or unprofessional. And in the end that exposes what you know and what you not know. You have even said in this recent response, you do not even know the facts or the background.

Thank you for proving my point. That is all I wanted to do.

[ajmc]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Then why did you respond if what I am saying is garbage?

I am sorry, but when you tell people that have insight on this that the NF has approved your offense and after you first make those statements several states outlaw the offense and vow to change current NF Rules, that is a misrepresentation of many facts.

Once again, I do not care about best interest of the game or if the offense is legal or not.

And you are just like Kurt, when asked for specifics we cannot get a straight answer. But you have continually called me names all because I want you to prove what you say.
Thank you for proving my point. That is all I wanted to do.

Perhaps I respond because I don't want the smell of your garbage to taint the stripes of my shirt.

So several States have outlawed this offense and vow to change the current NFHS rules. As we all know, they have the right to do whatever they want WITHIN THEIR STATE. Does any of that make this offense illegal under the NFHS code? I don't think so. Has the NFHS declared this offense illegal, I don't think so. We all vow to do a lot of things that never get done.

If you want to understand what you, and others, have said that was over the line, go back and read what you've written, with an open mind. It will jump up and bite you on the behind.

Are you actually going to play the victim's card, whining, "you have continually called me names all because I want you to prove what you say." Poor baby, you, and others, have been throwing bombs at this man simply because he doesn't share your view of an idea he developed, and when your bombs exceeded the bounds of professional curtesy and general civility that was pointed out to you, your feelings are hurt and your defensive fangs came out.

Understand something simple, because either one of us conclude something, or someone, was wrong, or behaved badly, that is nothing more, or less, than an opinion. I've shared my opinion, regarding the behavior you and others have chosen to demonstrate. You had the options to totally ignore me, and my opinion, consider it and apply it as you deemed appropriate, or defend yourself over and over and over again with the same bully tactics you were applying against KB. Outshouting, bullying, ridiculously trying to rally support usually doesn't work, when you're just wrong.

Nothing has changed on my end, from day 1, you and some others elected to step below the line, and I simply pointed that out. Since then, you, and others have chosen to try and pour gasoline on the fire thinking somehow that would put the fire out, not surprisingly it hasn't and doubtfully ever will.

If you want evidence, it's there waiting for you. Simply go back and read what was written, the tone in which it was intended and if you look with an open mind you will see where the discussion clearly dipped below the line of reasonable taste and basic civility. I can't make you see it if you don't want to look, and I'm sure as heck not going to waste time pointing things out that you have no intention of seeing.

Whatever KB has said, concluded, opined, suggested or inferred that you find improper or objectional IS ON HIM, but that doesn't give you, or anybody else license to insult, accuse or dispariage him in return. Whatever you choose to say in return is ON YOU, and is not his fault, my fault or anyone else's fault.

We've all stepped over the line occassionally and most often correct things by simply realizing we may have, and step back. This nonsense has gone this far simply because you, and others, have elected to ride your high horse even higher, rather than simply step down.

A final point, which seems to escape some, is that this is an "Official's Forum" and, as is always the case (whether we like it or not), how we choose to say what we choose to say reflects on who we are, not only individually but collectively as well, especially when we're dealing with a non official. We all have some responsibility not to embarrass each other.

[Adam]

Rut, I lost track. Have you been shown the example of your poor behavior?

Never mind, I see the examples he provided, and the answer to my question is a solid, "Not yet."

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Rut, I lost track. Have you been shown the example of your poor behavior?

Never mind, I see the examples he provided, and the answer to my question is a solid, "Not yet."

No, not one time.

Peace

[Ed Hickland]

Originally Posted by ajmc

Perhaps I respond because I don't want the smell of your garbage to taint the stripes of my shirt.

So several States have outlawed this offense and vow to change the current NFHS rules. As we all know, they have the right to do whatever they want WITHIN THEIR STATE. Does any of that make this offense illegal under the NFHS code? I don't think so. Has the NFHS declared this offense illegal, I don't think so. We all vow to do a lot of things that never get done.

The point is the NFHS never intended the A-11. Unfortunately, I do not have the discussion around the numbering exception and why but one could imagine it was to allow on a scrimmage kick a number other than 50-79 to be the long snapper without having to manipulate his jersey. Not in the wildest dreams was the A-11 intended. The great thing about what has happened with the A-11 is various interpretations have ruled it legal or illegal and almost without a doubt NFHS will fill the loophole that allowed it. Read the proposed changes and it is obvious. My personal hope is somehow the numbering exception is not removed as one member of the rules committee wants to do.

...You had the options to totally ignore me, and my opinion, consider it and apply it as you deemed appropriate,

Whatever KB has said, concluded, opined, suggested or inferred that you find improper or objectional IS ON HIM, but that doesn't give you, or anybody else license to insult, accuse or dispariage him in return. Whatever you choose to say in return is ON YOU, and is not his fault, my fault or anyone else's fault.

I for one have said Coach Bryan's motivation was suspect and I think it still is. He could have easily run the A-11 at Piedmont there is the hills outside Oakland with the approval of the local officials. So why did he engage ESPN, the New York Times, etc.? You just don't expose anything to the length he has without some motivation. He is a salesman by his actions. He expects some return, albeit, public accolades, his legend, money... To question his motivation is not to insult, it is exactly that, Kurt why are you doing this? And, I have not seen one post where he answers that question completely. Until he does there will be speculation. After all, this is the United States and we have the right to speak as long as we do not defame.

We've all stepped over the line occassionally and most often correct things by simply realizing we may have, and step back. This nonsense has gone this far simply because you, and others, have elected to ride your high horse even higher, rather than simply step down.

A final point, which seems to escape some, is that this is an "Official's Forum" and, as is always the case (whether we like it or not), how we choose to say what we choose to say reflects on who we are, not only individually but collectively as well, especially when we're dealing with a non official. We all have some responsibility not to embarrass each other.

Maybe you should swallow a dose of the medicine you prescribe.

[ajmc]

Originally Posted by Ed Hickland

I for one have said Coach Bryan's motivation was suspect and I think it still is. To question his motivation is not to insult, it is exactly that, Kurt why are you doing this? After all, this is the United States and we have the right to speak as long as we do not defame.

Maybe you should swallow a dose of the medicine you prescribe.

Excuse me, Ed, I cut out most of your superflous BS in the interest of space. To question anyone's motivation is not a problem, and I've never suggested it was. It's when you decide to include your own speculation as answers to your questions, that gets close to and over the line.

Asking a question is not usually a problem. It becomes a problem when you start thinking you can demand answers and everyone else is required to respond to thos demands. When, how and why to respond to any question is entirely up to the person being questioned. Someone may choose to decline to answer a question, because they might think it stupid, leading, not like the tone in which it was asked or otherwise not worthy of answering, which doesn't give the questioner license to substitute whatever answer they might imagine as being possible or presuming what the answers should be.

I'm glad you recognize there is a line drawn at "defame". Although it's not a straight line, the input I found objectionable were the comments that fell clearly over any reasonably placed line.

I assure you Ed, I've swallowed gallons of the medicine I've prescribed and have found it often distasteful and sometimes hard to swallow, but it's ususally proven to be very beneficial. Unfortunately, the malady is never totally cured, it's more a condition you hope just continually keeps getting better and doesn't repeat itself.

[Ed Hickland]

Originally Posted by ajmc

Excuse me, Ed, I cut out most of your superflous BS in the interest of space. To question anyone's motivation is not a problem, and I've never suggested it was. It's when you decide to include your own speculation as answers to your questions, that gets close to and over the line.

Asking a question is not usually a problem. It becomes a problem when you start thinking you can demand answers and everyone else is required to respond to thos demands. When, how and why to respond to any question is entirely up to the person being questioned. Someone may choose to decline to answer a question, because they might think it stupid, leading, not like the tone in which it was asked or otherwise not worthy of answering, which doesn't give the questioner license to substitute whatever answer they might imagine as being possible or presuming what the answers should be.

Know you are missing the point. Coach Bryan's initative will fail because has failed to appeal to the audience he needed on the level they play. The Rules Committee is a conservative organization charged with carefully thinking through the rules. The A-11 is an embrassment to them to think they could have missed the loophole. Then Coach Bryan's publicity campaign that will "revolutionize" football is an in your face move. Add to that, reporters from the New York Times and ESPN touting the A-11 while several states are making it illegal.

Coach Bryan should be willing to answer questions, in fact, should solicit questions from this board or other officials organizations and give solid answers to bolster his case. Quoting a 50 year official versus gaining the support of a group of officials would be more powerful. I cannot and will not speak for those beside myself who are against the A-11, the perceived attitude of Coach Bryan to choose not to address our issues is what I believe has led to the negative comments expressed here.

BTW. What you call superfluous BS is actually part of a well thought out response which I wish you would engage rather than writing rambling essays devoid of actual content.

[ajmc]

Originally Posted by Ed Hickland

BTW. What you call superfluous BS is actually part of a well thought out response which I wish you would engage rather than writing rambling essays devoid of actual content.

Ed, My apologies if you consider this response redundant, but I must assume previous attempts were not clear enough for you. I do not particularly care for the concept of the A-11 offense, and never have. There is no question in my mind that this approach is a carefully crafted attempt to utilize the existing numbering exception to accomplish an objective that was never originally considered, so I'm not competent to argue in it's favor.

However, I do not believe that suggesting an approach not previously considered in any way abuses the rule or takes an inappropriate advantage of it. The NFHS apparently agrees that there is nothing in the current wording of the rule that renders it illegal, and that the current language provides a glaring loophole.

The remedy is relatively simple; if the rule makers determine this loophole to be prohibitive they have the ultimate power to close it by ammending the language of the rule. Arguments, many of which seem appropriate and valid, have been aggressively make to support those objections. Expanding beyond relevant objections to include insult, innuendo, personal attacks regarding motivations that are completely and totally unsubstantiated only detracts from the debate.

Regarding the offense itself, I don't see where it violates any current rules, although I believe to be effective, it requires such a high level of consistent precise compliance with several other rules (formations, shifts and motion) to render it impractical at the High School level.

Why Coach Bryan chooses not to answer specific questions, why he has, in your judgment, chosen not to ask specific questions or interact with other official's organizations or address your specific "issues" is totally beyond my vision. I might mention that other contributors to these forums criticise him for trying to interact, and dialogue with officials.

Just a guess, but perhaps the fact that many of his inquiries, or offerings, tend to generate responses that characterize his interests in extremely negative terms and twist and turn his observations into ulterior motivations and subjective accusations may have a bearing on his reluctance.

If you believe his actions, or lack thereof, have been detrimental to his cause that is an entirely rational conclusion well within your grasp. That does not, in my humble opinion however, provide you, or anyone else who may feel opposed to Coach Bryan or his A-11 offense idea, license to question his integrity, challenge his personal honesty, insult, mock or demean him, especially on a forum that is intended to be recognized as a gathering place for professional football officials to share ideas related to the rules and the game of football. It has always been my understanding that we are, and well should be, above that level of petty behavior.

[daggo66]

Who are you and what have you done with ajmc?

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by ajmc

Perhaps I respond because I don't want the smell of your garbage to taint the stripes of my shirt.

So several States have outlawed this offense and vow to change the current NFHS rules. As we all know, they have the right to do whatever they want WITHIN THEIR STATE. Does any of that make this offense illegal under the NFHS code? I don't think so. Has the NFHS declared this offense illegal, I don't think so. We all vow to do a lot of things that never get done.

What did I say that was not true? Are you saying states cannot push to change rules now?

Originally Posted by ajmc

If you want to understand what you, and others, have said that was over the line, go back and read what you've written, with an open mind. It will jump up and bite you on the behind.

Why not give one example? I do not think you can read.

Originally Posted by ajmc

Are you actually going to play the victim's card, whining, "you have continually called me names all because I want you to prove what you say." Poor baby, you, and others, have been throwing bombs at this man simply because he doesn't share your view of an idea he developed, and when your bombs exceeded the bounds of professional curtesy and general civility that was pointed out to you, your feelings are hurt and your defensive fangs came out.

Not complaining at all. Just showing your behavior for what it is, while being a big hypocrite. BTW it is “courtesy.”

Originally Posted by ajmc

Understand something simple, because either one of us conclude something, or someone, was wrong, or behaved badly, that is nothing more, or less, than an opinion. I've shared my opinion, regarding the behavior you and others have chosen to demonstrate. You had the options to totally ignore me, and my opinion, consider it and apply it as you deemed appropriate, or defend yourself over and over and over again with the same bully tactics you were applying against KB. Outshouting, bullying, ridiculously trying to rally support usually doesn't work, when you're just wrong.

You are starting to get it a little bit (very little). And no one had to rally support for anything, they came to the conclusion on their own volition.

Originally Posted by ajmc

Nothing has changed on my end, from day 1, you and some others elected to step below the line, and I simply pointed that out. Since then, you, and others have chosen to try and pour gasoline on the fire thinking somehow that would put the fire out, not surprisingly it hasn't and doubtfully ever will.

One example might just put out the fire? Because I can give multiple examples of your comments towards me or others that you claim is out of line. I doubt seriously you will find me saying anything like that about Kurt.

Originally Posted by ajmc

If you want evidence, it's there waiting for you. Simply go back and read what was written, the tone in which it was intended and if you look with an open mind you will see where the discussion clearly dipped below the line of reasonable taste and basic civility. I can't make you see it if you don't want to look, and I'm sure as heck not going to waste time pointing things out that you have no intention of seeing.

No examples still huh?

Originally Posted by ajmc

Whatever KB has said, concluded, opined, suggested or inferred that you find improper or objectional IS ON HIM, but that doesn't give you, or anybody else license to insult, accuse or dispariage him in return. Whatever you choose to say in return is ON YOU, and is not his fault, my fault or anyone else's fault.

I have every right to point out what I want to. If I did not have the right, then the people of this site and other sites would have moderated my comments. Funny, you do not see anyone moderating my comments or anyone else's about Kurt do you?

Originally Posted by ajmc

We've all stepped over the line occassionally and most often correct things by simply realizing we may have, and step back. This nonsense has gone this far simply because you, and others, have elected to ride your high horse even higher, rather than simply step down.

Example please?

Originally Posted by ajmc

A final point, which seems to escape some, is that this is an "Official's Forum" and, as is always the case (whether we like it or not), how we choose to say what we choose to say reflects on who we are, not only individually but collectively as well, especially when we're dealing with a non official. We all have some responsibility not to embarrass each other.

I represent me, I do not represent or claim to represent everyone. You obviously do not represent anyone, you have not been doing this very long.

Peace

[ajmc]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I represent me, I do not represent or claim to represent everyone. You obviously do not represent anyone, you have not been doing this very long.

Peace

Thanks for the spelling correction. You are correct, I don't represent anyone, but I respect those I'm associated with and try not to do anything that would needlessly embarrass them, especially just to try and make myself sound important.

I've been doing "this" long enough to recognize smoke and BS when I come across them.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by ajmc

Thanks for the spelling correction. You are correct, I don't represent anyone, but I respect those I'm associated with and try not to do anything that would needlessly embarrass them, especially just to try and make myself sound important.

I've been doing "this" long enough to recognize smoke and BS when I come across them.

To the point that you cannot give one example of things you consider BS or where the smoke is coming from?

I guess you need to look in the mirror, because all you have said has been total BS.

Peace

[daggo66]

ajmc, I'm just curious, are there any direct questions at all that you will answer? Is there a particular reason you choose not to answer the last question I posted?

[asdf]

He'll never answer the questions.

[ajmc]

Originally Posted by daggo66

ajmc, I'm just curious, are there any direct questions at all that you will answer? Is there a particular reason you choose not to answer the last question I posted?

I'll try and answer any rational question, I'm able to answer. If you are referring to your question, "Now, taking into account all that you stated above, why do you think he would join an officials forum in order to promote and make those claims?", I really can't give you an answer because I have no idea why coach Bryan does anything, so I obviously can't apeak for him, which of course, you should have realized before you asked the question.

I have never spoken with him about anything, so why whould you expect me to provide such an answer? Rather than speculate about what he might have thought, might have meant, might have intended, might have wanted to do or accomplish, doesn't it make a lot more sense for me to say nothing?