Mississippi HS Game Protest Upheld

[OverAndBack]

I just wish we could get people (fans and writers, primarily) to strike the word "lateral" and the phrase "forward lateral" (an oxymoron if there ever was one) from their vocabularies.

This begs the question of how supposedly experienced referees could have blown such a critical call because they didn't know the rules.

Obviously, out of however many officials they had, somebody should have gotten it right.

But, as we all know (and this is not to excuse anybody who kicks one, because we all do), the freaking rules of this game are out of control. They've just overly complicated the game and making it harder and harder to keep everything straight.

[ajmc]

This was a tough situation, but the current rule is direct, simple and clear; (NFHS: 1.1.11 "Protests of NFHS rules are not recognized". I realize it's not a rule being challenged here, but the misapplication of a rule. That situation is covered in current rule (NFHS: 3.5.11 - The process designed for a coach to question a rule application, during the contest.).

In this actual situation, the team had the opportunity to question the application of this rule, and doing so may have well caused the Referee to correct his error on the spot and prevent what happened.

This decision sets a dangerous prescedent that Mississippi will likely have to deal with again, some time in the future, where some other post game discovery generates a similar request to change events after the fact.

There is no question that the officials misapplied a rule and that mistake produced the opportunity for a score to be added after the game should have been completed. The coaching staff of the disadvantaged team had every right and every opportunity to have followed existing procedures
(3.5.11) to question the ruling and ask it to be reversed.

The official's mistake was, "readily correctable" and could have and should have been corrected before the untimed down was played. Correcting it after the fact creates a dangerous and unfortunate prescedent.

[With_Two_Flakes]

An illegal forward pass beyond the line by A. The news article says "This back picked the ball up off the ground and ran it in for an apparent touchdown." So surely, if B decline the penalty, it is NOT a score, the result of the play is an incomplete forward pass.

Or am I missing something here?

[Rich]

Originally Posted by ajmc

This was a tough situation, but the current rule is direct, simple and clear; (NFHS: 1.1.11 "Protests of NFHS rules are not recognized". I realize it's not a rule being challenged here, but the misapplication of a rule. That situation is covered in current rule (NFHS: 3.5.11 - The process designed for a coach to question a rule application, during the contest.).

In this actual situation, the team had the opportunity to question the application of this rule, and doing so may have well caused the Referee to correct his error on the spot and prevent what happened.

This decision sets a dangerous prescedent that Mississippi will likely have to deal with again, some time in the future, where some other post game discovery generates a similar request to change events after the fact.

There is no question that the officials misapplied a rule and that mistake produced the opportunity for a score to be added after the game should have been completed. The coaching staff of the disadvantaged team had every right and every opportunity to have followed existing procedures
(3.5.11) to question the ruling and ask it to be reversed.

The official's mistake was, "readily correctable" and could have and should have been corrected before the untimed down was played. Correcting it after the fact creates a dangerous and unfortunate prescedent.

Regardless of how anyone feels about it, states are free to use or ignore NFHS rules whenever they wish. Or not even use them.

In this case, I think the state did the right thing. It was the last play of the game and the game had (should have) ended.

The officials here should be held accountable, not the coaches.

[GPC2]

Originally Posted by ajmc

This was a tough situation, but the current rule is direct, simple and clear; (NFHS: 1.1.11 "Protests of NFHS rules are not recognized". I realize it's not a rule being challenged here, but the misapplication of a rule. That situation is covered in current rule (NFHS: 3.5.11 - The process designed for a coach to question a rule application, during the contest.).

In this actual situation, the team had the opportunity to question the application of this rule, and doing so may have well caused the Referee to correct his error on the spot and prevent what happened.

This decision sets a dangerous prescedent that Mississippi will likely have to deal with again, some time in the future, where some other post game discovery generates a similar request to change events after the fact.

There is no question that the officials misapplied a rule and that mistake produced the opportunity for a score to be added after the game should have been completed. The coaching staff of the disadvantaged team had every right and every opportunity to have followed existing procedures
(3.5.11) to question the ruling and ask it to be reversed.

The official's mistake was, "readily correctable" and could have and should have been corrected before the untimed down was played. Correcting it after the fact creates a dangerous and unfortunate prescedent.

I don't know if we have all of the information - perhaps the coach did attempt to get a clarification/correction at that time. This whole situation stinks. What if the coach got brushed off by the crew and they stuck with their call? What if the coach realized the next day (for whatever reason), or had someone call him the next day to tell him about the misapplication of the rule - hence prompting his protest - should the protest be upheld? Clearly the rule was misapplied, and OverAndBack, I gotta disagree with you on this one. This is a pretty basic rule (assuming the ball was caught and not recovered), that has been thoroughly discussed - and there is NO EXCUSE for a playoff crew to screw that one up. Now, if the ball was truly recovered as was stated in the article - then I truly have no words....

[Welpe]

Originally Posted by OverAndBack

But, as we all know (and this is not to excuse anybody who kicks one, because we all do), the freaking rules of this game are out of control. They've just overly complicated the game and making it harder and harder to keep everything straight.

They are? I don't think the Fed rules are all that complicated honestly.

[Theisey]

Originally Posted by OverAndBack

....
But, as we all know (and this is not to excuse anybody who kicks one, because we all do), the freaking rules of this game are out of control. They've just overly complicated the game and making it harder and harder to keep everything straight.

?????
What possibly be overcomplicated with the true result of the play is an incompleted foreward pass? Decline the foul... game over

[ajmc]

RichMSN, it appears I inadvertently raised somw questions in your mind that were not intended. I understand that States are (somewhat) free to disregard NFHS rules and suggestions, however that doesn't mean that NFHS rules and guidelines don't make sense and are good ideas.

I also had no intention to suggest the game officials weren't responsible. They blew the call, big time and I suspect will, as usual, be held accountable for their error. The point, I obviously failed to make clear to you, is that there currently is a really very simple, very direct procedure already in place where a coach can question rule applications, and those questions must be addressed. In this situation, the coaches apparently failed to avail themselves of this opportunity which was established for this very reason so that misapplication of rules could be questioned, and where necessary corrected, immediately before any lasting damage was created.

Coaches are responsible for knowing enough about the rules to be able to recognize a serious miscarriage, although clearly that is a primary responsibility of the game officials. This particular incident, and the result thus far, has crossed a line, one that had previously been a fairly bright line establishing the standard that the rules provide for an appropriate remedy for the misapplication of a rule during the contest, but once the game is over, THE GAME IS OVER.

Hopefully this incident won't serve as a model for Mississippi, or any other State, to consider post game reflections or observations as opportunities to serve as reasons for post game protests.

[JugglingReferee]

+1 for the MHSAA.

They sought truth and found it.

[OverAndBack]

Originally Posted by Theisey

?????
What possibly be overcomplicated with the true result of the play is an incompleted foreward pass? Decline the foul... game over

No, I just mean in general. Too many rules, which change from year to year, not all of which you apply all the time and which we're expected to call up in the heat of the moment even though we haven't seen a similar situation in years.

Not that THIS particular rule is complicated. But the rulebook is unweildy and written in some other language. The fact the game is hard to officiate is evidenced by the numerous threads here and the debates over "what would you do?" or "what was the right call?"

Speaking in general terms, not specific terms.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by OverAndBack

No, I just mean in general. Too many rules, which change from year to year, not all of which you apply all the time and which we're expected to call up in the heat of the moment even though we haven't seen a similar situation in years.

Not that THIS particular rule is complicated. But the rulebook is unweildy and written in some other language. The fact the game is hard to officiate is evidenced by the numerous threads here and the debates over "what would you do?" or "what was the right call?"

Speaking in general terms, not specific terms.

I don't buy this. It's our JOB to know the rules. Sure, the rules aren't simple in all places, but hey, it's OUR JOB to know them. If we miss one, SHAME ON US.

And too many officials in football act like "that's the white hat's job."

Sorry, no. Every member of this crew is equally culpable for screwing the pooch on this one.

[TXMike]

Just wondering what the Fed rule is on this if instead of the illegal fwd pass falling to the ground, it had been caught and taken in for a TD. I assume the penalty would be enforced and there woudl be an untimed down?

And what about this...play happened as described in the article but video was clear the pass was NOT forward but was backwards (even though had been flagged as illegal fwd pass). Would protest still have been upheld as that would have been a "judgment" issue?


PS - looks like the crew is getting hammered for the mistake

From: Leader Call - Walnut reinstated to 2A playoffs
Proctor wouldn’t give names of the officiating crew for the game, but says the entire crew has been suspended for the 2008 and 2009 playoffs. He says the crew will also be on probation during the 2009 regular season.

“We are real pleased with the decision,” said Walnut coach Timmy Moore, who has coached at the Tippah County school since 1993. “We felt like the activities association and executive committee would do the proper thing and correct a wrong. I knew I had a great case and I knew we were right.”

Leland coach Eugene Sanders says he and his players were disappointed.

“The (game) officials made their decision and it was a judgment call,” Sanders said. “It should be decided by officials and not people sitting behind a desk. What were my children supposed to do? All we can do is go by what the referees say.”

Leland finished the season at 9-3.

[Welpe]

Originally Posted by TXMike

Just wondering what the Fed rule is on this if instead of the illegal fwd pass falling to the ground, it had been caught and taken in for a TD. I assume the penalty would be enforced and there woudl be an untimed down?

Mike, same as if it were incomplete. If the penalty is accepted, there would be a loss of down and there is no untimed down.

[Bob M.]

Originally Posted by TXMike

Just wondering what the Fed rule is on this if instead of the illegal fwd pass falling to the ground, it had been caught and taken in for a TD. I assume the penalty would be enforced and there woudl be an untimed down?

REPLY: No Mike...If the IFP was caught, the play would continue until the down ended by rule. Acceptance of the penalty would not result in an untimed down. That's the rule change referred to in an earlier post. A few years back the Fed changed the rule to say that if there is a foul during the last timed down of a period and the penalty for that foul includes loss of down, there is no untimed down.

[b10mtrk]

Originally Posted by Bob M.

REPLY: No Mike...If the IFP was caught, the play would continue until the down ended by rule. Acceptance of the penalty would not result in an untimed down. That's the rule change referred to in an earlier post. A few years back the Fed changed the rule to say that if there is a foul during the last timed down of a period and the penalty for that foul includes loss of down, there is no untimed down.

Finally we are done! Thank-you Bob M.