Missing tailbone pad puts team in the playoffs

[sloth]

Originally Posted by waltjp

Go back and read my post again. That's not even close to what I wrote and it's not relevant to the situation.

I have no problem making the big call when it is warrented. I do have a problem making a tickey tackey call that will impact the outcome of a game.

You never answered one of my questions. Had the coach not raised this as an issue (and you noticed on your own) would you have flagged it as a USC or would you have warned the player and made him become uniform compliant? Unless you would have thrown the flag without the coach promping you to do so, you got talked into a call.

[golfnref]

Originally Posted by sloth

As a referee, I would stop the play and send the kicker off to get a new tailbone pad. This is a safety foul and it needs to be fixed before the next play, but the 15yard USC is overkill. Lets not forget, we're out there to insure the players safety and to proveide a fair contest. We need to look for ways to have a good game and NOT impact the outcome.

And you would have rule justification for sending the player off as opposed to penalizing before participating. Rule 1-5-5 "when any required player equipment is missing or when illegal equipment is found, correction shall be made before participation". I too have sent players off when they entered without required equipment.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by golfnref

And you would have rule justification for sending the player off as opposed to penalizing before participating. Rule 1-5-5 "when any required player equipment is missing or when illegal equipment is found, correction shall be made before participation". I too have sent players off when they entered without required equipment.

And this is what I would've done and slept like a baby that night, too.

[waltjp]

Originally Posted by sloth

I have no problem making the big call when it is warrented. I do have a problem making a tickey tackey call that will impact the outcome of a game.

You never answered one of my questions. Had the coach not raised this as an issue (and you noticed on your own) would you have flagged it as a USC or would you have warned the player and made him become uniform compliant? Unless you would have thrown the flag without the coach promping you to do so, you got talked into a call.

Mr. Referee, my coach would like a time out to discuss the misapplication of a rule.

No to answer the preaching from above - yes, of course I've sent players off when they haven't been wearing the proper equipment. But I've never done so after being informed by a coach that a player who participated in the previous play wasn't wearing what's required.

You go explain to the coach why you're ignoring a rule that he seems to be well versed in.

[daggo66]

Originally Posted by golfnref

And you would have rule justification for sending the player off as opposed to penalizing before participating. Rule 1-5-5 "when any required player equipment is missing or when illegal equipment is found, correction shall be made before participation". I too have sent players off when they entered without required equipment.

Once again, why isn't anyone reading the bold print below 1.5.5 that says PENALTY????????????????

[Brett]

Originally Posted by daggo66

Once again, why isn't anyone reading the bold print below 1.5.5 that says PENALTY????????????????

You mean this text?

PENALTY: Unsportsmanlike conduct (Arts. 2, 3, 5) – (S27) — 15 yards. See 9-
8-1h. Failure to properly wear required equipment during a down (Art. 6) –
(S27, S23) – 5 yards. See 3-6-2d for failure to properly wear required
equipment when the ball is about to become live.

[sloth]

Originally Posted by waltjp

Mr. Referee, my coach would like a time out to discuss the misapplication of a rule.

No to answer the preaching from above - yes, of course I've sent players off when they haven't been wearing the proper equipment. But I've never done so after being informed by a coach that a player who participated in the previous play wasn't wearing what's required.

You go explain to the coach why you're ignoring a rule that he seems to be well versed in.

I've thought about this because I would have to talk to him. I'd go like this "Coach, I appreciate your observation and helping us to correct a safety concern. The player in question will not be allowed to participate in the game until he has the proper equipment." If he presses me for the flag I'd tell him "Coach, thats up to my discression and I've made my descision. You have my name, any complaints can be addressed to the IHSAA."

This is a no-call that I'd defend anywhere, to anyone...and stake my reputation as a white hat on it.

[bigjohn]

sloth, that makes you a man of integrity and a model for the officials code of ethics in my book. Good for you, sir! I am serious about this and thank you for being so bold!

[refbuz]

I wouldn't call this in the 1st quarter and I'm CERTAINLY not calling this in the 4th.

[Blue37]

Originally Posted by daggo66

Once again, why isn't anyone reading the bold print below 1.5.5 that says PENALTY????????????????

We are reading the penalty, but we contend it does not apply because of of the wording in 1-5-1, where the mandatory equipment for individuals who participate is listed. If a substitute comes into the game, he has not participated and, therefore, the penalty is not applicable.

1-5-5 says he must have all required equipment before he is allowed to particpate and I will send him off to make those corrections.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by waltjp

Mr. Referee, my coach would like a time out to discuss the misapplication of a rule.

"He has my ruling. No time out. Let's go."

If I go over there and it comes out that he knew about this and withheld this for the "right moment" he's likely going to end up with an USC flag. So it's better I don't even go over there.

[Kirby]

Originally Posted by sloth

I've thought about this because I would have to talk to him. I'd go like this "Coach, I appreciate your observation and helping us to correct a safety concern. The player in question will not be allowed to participate in the game until he has the proper equipment." If he presses me for the flag I'd tell him "Coach, thats up to my discression and I've made my descision. You have my name, any complaints can be addressed to the IHSAA."

This is a no-call that I'd defend anywhere, to anyone...and stake my reputation as a white hat on it.

Sloth,

I am surprised there is this much disagreement with you on this situation. I've just read through all the posts and agree 100% with how you would handle the situation. Thanks.

[bisonlj]

Originally Posted by sloth

I've thought about this because I would have to talk to him. I'd go like this "Coach, I appreciate your observation and helping us to correct a safety concern. The player in question will not be allowed to participate in the game until he has the proper equipment." If he presses me for the flag I'd tell him "Coach, thats up to my discression and I've made my descision. You have my name, any complaints can be addressed to the IHSAA."

This is a no-call that I'd defend anywhere, to anyone...and stake my reputation as a white hat on it.

This is exactly how I feel about this play as well. There are lots of fouls pointed out by coaches that are technically correct (i.e. foot in the NZ by a receiver, slight movement by a lineman before the snap, hold by a tackle away from the play), but we use good judgement on whether or not to penalize a team for it.

[OverAndBack]

Originally Posted by RichMSN

And this is what I would've done and slept like a baby that night, too.

Waking up every three hours, crying and looking for a breast to suck on?

[HossHumard]

I'm with Sloth too. This is a BS move by a coach and I would simply send the kid off without penalty.

As much as I admit I am not well versed with American rules, IMHO this is well outside the "spirit of the game" and I would use my discretion as an official to ensure this match was decided by play and strategy, not a coach who feigns concern for an opposing player's safety by waiting until an opportune moment to mention it to an official.

This reminds me a bit of the ice hockey rule concerning the curvature of a player's stick. There is a limit as to how curved a stick can be (thanks Bobby Hull!) so it was not uncommon for coaches to note an opposing player's stick that was likely exceeding the legal limit and then "call the penalty" when they needed a manpower advantage. What happened then of course was stick challenges all over the place, delaying numerous games, until the NHL decided to penalize incorrect challenges to this rule with a two minute penalty to the team that complained to the officials.

I know what I would say in any hearing that I might be called too afterwards too. "So, coach, you saw a potentially dangerous safety issue for a player on the field and you did not immediately report it? What if the players tailbone had been damaged permanently? Were you prepared to live with that knowing you could have prevented it?"