Missing tailbone pad puts team in the playoffs

[sloth]

As a referee, I would stop the play and send the kicker off to get a new tailbone pad. This is a safety foul and it needs to be fixed before the next play, but the 15yard USC is overkill. Lets not forget, we're out there to insure the players safety and to proveide a fair contest. We need to look for ways to have a good game and NOT impact the outcome.

[GoodScout]

Originally Posted by sloth

As a referee, I would stop the play and send the kicker off to get a new tailbone pad. This is a safety foul and it needs to be fixed before the next play, but the 15yard USC is overkill. Lets not forget, we're out there to insure the players safety and to proveide a fair contest. We need to look for ways to have a good game and NOT impact the outcome.

Sloth has it right.

[kdf5]

So what would be your call if he lined up to kick without a helmet?

[daggo66]

Originally Posted by kdf5

So what would be your call if he lined up to kick without a helmet?

This one has my head spinning as to exactly how I would have handled that situation. Think about what you would do if a player ran out on the field without his helmet. I'm thinking I would tell him that he forgot his helmet and go get it. If he replaced someone and became a "player", by rule this would now he a penalty under 1.5.5. Would the opposing coach have demanded a penalty for that? I really don't think so. However, for some reason I think I would treat the tail pad differently and enforce the 15 yard USC. I certainly don't look for tail pads, but if it's brought to my attention then I have no choice. I certainly wouldn't start inspecting the other team for some violation or other. We could spend the rest of the night doing that. How many of you would consider the fact that he participated in the previous down without the required equipment. Could the TD be called back at this point? Why is the rule 5 yards during a play, but 15 after?

[waltjp]

Originally Posted by sloth

As a referee, I would stop the play and send the kicker off to get a new tailbone pad. This is a safety foul and it needs to be fixed before the next play, but the 15yard USC is overkill. Lets not forget, we're out there to insure the players safety and to proveide a fair contest. We need to look for ways to have a good game and NOT impact the outcome.

If the kicker is also the team's star QB who just threw a 50-yard bomb to set up the potential winning FG you're going to have a hard time not enforcing the rule about participating without wearing the required equipment.

It's a tough spot to be in but unless you decide to willfully set aside a rule I don't see what else you can do.

[waltjp]

Originally Posted by sloth

We need to look for ways to have a good game and NOT impact the outcome.

This is a garbage statement. We're officials and we're out there to enforce the rules, not to invoke our sense of fairness. Sometimes you have to make the game impacting call. Sometimes you have to enforce a rule that impacts the game. If you're not willing to make the call or enforce the rule that will impact the game you may as well stay home because you're not doing your job.

[sloth]

Originally Posted by waltjp

This is a garbage statement. We're officials and we're out there to enforce the rules, not to invoke our sense of fairness. Sometimes you have to make the game impacting call. Sometimes you have to enforce a rule that impacts the game. If you're not willing to make the call or enforce the rule that will impact the game you may as well stay home because you're not doing your job.

So your going to tell me that you call every rule in the book, every play...no exceptions? We warn players all the time about stuff. How many times do we over look holding or a BIB that is not severe or at the point of attack? So as a referee, had the coach not noticed the missing tailpad and you had,would you have hit him for a 15 yard USC? If not, then the coach just talked you into a call you would not have made otherwise.

I've been starting to dabble in DIII JV games. I've taken a lot of great high level concepts from the meetings I've been to. One of them is "not to be a pioneer"-don't look for inventive ways to enforce the rules. Another is "make the foul matter if your going to enforce if it's in a close game"...in other words don't be too technical in close games. Yes, we may impact the outcome of a game, but it has to matter to the game.

The equipment rules are there to insure the safety of the players. If the coach notices that a piece of equipment is missing, you should thank him for his attention to detail, stop the game to fix the problem then play on. The absence of a tailpad didn't give one team an advantage over the other...why have a game decidd because an official decided that he was going to lay down the law and mak an example of a situation.

At the end of the day, I'd rather be known as the offical that used good prudent judgement it that situation to address an issue in a non-impactful way as opposed to an official that knocked a team out of field goal range because of a missing tailbone pad. I'd venture a guess that 9 out of 10 coaches would agree that is the proper way to handle this foul.

[LDUB]

Originally Posted by sloth

As a referee, I would stop the play and send the kicker off to get a new tailbone pad. This is a safety foul and it needs to be fixed before the next play, but the 15yard USC is overkill. Lets not forget, we're out there to insure the players safety and to proveide a fair contest.

The officials are not out there to do what is fair, they are there to officiate the game by the rules. It is not your job to decide what the proper penalty is.

Originally Posted by sloth

We need to look for ways to have a good game and NOT impact the outcome.

That is a myth spread by TV announcers. Everything the officials do the entire game impacts the outcome.

[mbyron]

I agree with 2 key points stated so far:
1. This is a crap tactic by the coach who's asking for the penalty.
2. If the opposing team wants to avoid being "victimized" by such tactics, all they have to do is follow the rules.

That said, I can't see a way to avoid assessing the penalty here. The closest thing would be to say that I didn't see the player participate without the pad on the previous play.

But if I knew he did participate -- if he's the QB, for instance -- it's just not plausible to say that somehow he lost the pad after the play.

So in the end I'd probably do what the R did in this game: assess the penalty and let the chips fall where they may. I agree with Luke's philosophy of enforcing the rules, at least up to the standards set by my state and my association.

[Ed Hickland]

Originally Posted by mbyron

I agree with 2 key points stated so far:
1. This is a crap tactic by the coach who's asking for the penalty.
2. If the opposing team wants to avoid being "victimized" by such tactics, all they have to do is follow the rules.

That said, I can't see a way to avoid assessing the penalty here. The closest thing would be to say that I didn't see the player participate without the pad on the previous play.

But if I knew he did participate -- if he's the QB, for instance -- it's just not plausible to say that somehow he lost the pad after the play.

So in the end I'd probably do what the R did in this game: assess the penalty and let the chips fall where they may. I agree with Luke's philosophy of enforcing the rules, at least up to the standards set by my state and my association.

There is a baseball play that comes to mind, I believe it was George Brett who was using a bat with more pine tar than allowed and Billy Martin was the Yankees manager. Martin saw Brett use the bat several times until one day he hit a crucial home run. Martin asked for the bat to be inspected taking away the home run from Brett.

But more important for football is a missing tailbone protector can subject the player to the possibility of permanent paralysis. I would rather be criticized for "over officiating" than being light on player protection.

[refbuz]

Originally Posted by Ed Hickland

There is a baseball play that comes to mind, I believe it was George Brett who was using a bat with more pine tar than allowed and Billy Martin was the Yankees manager. Martin saw Brett use the bat several times until one day he hit a crucial home run. Martin asked for the bat to be inspected taking away the home run from Brett.

You know that the Royals protested and had that call overturned, right? The Home Run counted and they won the game.

Pine Tar Game

This wasn't pointed out for the player's safety, it was merely pointed out to gain an advantage by the opposing coach.

[OverAndBack]

Originally Posted by refbuz

You know that the Royals protested and had that call overturned, right? The Home Run counted and they won the game.

Brett's bat did violate the rule. But the AL President ruled that the bat didn't violate the "spirit of the rule."

The Royals did win, but they did have to play from the point of protest weeks later to complete the game. It was a big ol' mess.

[waltjp]

Originally Posted by sloth

So your going to tell me that you call every rule in the book, every play...no exceptions?

Go back and read my post again. That's not even close to what I wrote and it's not relevant to the situation.

[sloth]

Originally Posted by waltjp

Go back and read my post again. That's not even close to what I wrote and it's not relevant to the situation.

I have no problem making the big call when it is warrented. I do have a problem making a tickey tackey call that will impact the outcome of a game.

You never answered one of my questions. Had the coach not raised this as an issue (and you noticed on your own) would you have flagged it as a USC or would you have warned the player and made him become uniform compliant? Unless you would have thrown the flag without the coach promping you to do so, you got talked into a call.

[waltjp]

Originally Posted by sloth

I have no problem making the big call when it is warrented. I do have a problem making a tickey tackey call that will impact the outcome of a game.

You never answered one of my questions. Had the coach not raised this as an issue (and you noticed on your own) would you have flagged it as a USC or would you have warned the player and made him become uniform compliant? Unless you would have thrown the flag without the coach promping you to do so, you got talked into a call.

Mr. Referee, my coach would like a time out to discuss the misapplication of a rule.

No to answer the preaching from above - yes, of course I've sent players off when they haven't been wearing the proper equipment. But I've never done so after being informed by a coach that a player who participated in the previous play wasn't wearing what's required.

You go explain to the coach why you're ignoring a rule that he seems to be well versed in.