Missing tailbone pad puts team in the playoffs

[GoodScout]

Originally Posted by sloth

As a referee, I would stop the play and send the kicker off to get a new tailbone pad. This is a safety foul and it needs to be fixed before the next play, but the 15yard USC is overkill. Lets not forget, we're out there to insure the players safety and to proveide a fair contest. We need to look for ways to have a good game and NOT impact the outcome.

Sloth has it right.

[kdf5]

So what would be your call if he lined up to kick without a helmet?

[waltjp]

Originally Posted by sloth

As a referee, I would stop the play and send the kicker off to get a new tailbone pad. This is a safety foul and it needs to be fixed before the next play, but the 15yard USC is overkill. Lets not forget, we're out there to insure the players safety and to proveide a fair contest. We need to look for ways to have a good game and NOT impact the outcome.

If the kicker is also the team's star QB who just threw a 50-yard bomb to set up the potential winning FG you're going to have a hard time not enforcing the rule about participating without wearing the required equipment.

It's a tough spot to be in but unless you decide to willfully set aside a rule I don't see what else you can do.

[waltjp]

Originally Posted by sloth

We need to look for ways to have a good game and NOT impact the outcome.

This is a garbage statement. We're officials and we're out there to enforce the rules, not to invoke our sense of fairness. Sometimes you have to make the game impacting call. Sometimes you have to enforce a rule that impacts the game. If you're not willing to make the call or enforce the rule that will impact the game you may as well stay home because you're not doing your job.

[daggo66]

Originally Posted by kdf5

So what would be your call if he lined up to kick without a helmet?

This one has my head spinning as to exactly how I would have handled that situation. Think about what you would do if a player ran out on the field without his helmet. I'm thinking I would tell him that he forgot his helmet and go get it. If he replaced someone and became a "player", by rule this would now he a penalty under 1.5.5. Would the opposing coach have demanded a penalty for that? I really don't think so. However, for some reason I think I would treat the tail pad differently and enforce the 15 yard USC. I certainly don't look for tail pads, but if it's brought to my attention then I have no choice. I certainly wouldn't start inspecting the other team for some violation or other. We could spend the rest of the night doing that. How many of you would consider the fact that he participated in the previous down without the required equipment. Could the TD be called back at this point? Why is the rule 5 yards during a play, but 15 after?

[LDUB]

Originally Posted by sloth

As a referee, I would stop the play and send the kicker off to get a new tailbone pad. This is a safety foul and it needs to be fixed before the next play, but the 15yard USC is overkill. Lets not forget, we're out there to insure the players safety and to proveide a fair contest.

The officials are not out there to do what is fair, they are there to officiate the game by the rules. It is not your job to decide what the proper penalty is.

Originally Posted by sloth

We need to look for ways to have a good game and NOT impact the outcome.

That is a myth spread by TV announcers. Everything the officials do the entire game impacts the outcome.

[mbyron]

I agree with 2 key points stated so far:
1. This is a crap tactic by the coach who's asking for the penalty.
2. If the opposing team wants to avoid being "victimized" by such tactics, all they have to do is follow the rules.

That said, I can't see a way to avoid assessing the penalty here. The closest thing would be to say that I didn't see the player participate without the pad on the previous play.

But if I knew he did participate -- if he's the QB, for instance -- it's just not plausible to say that somehow he lost the pad after the play.

So in the end I'd probably do what the R did in this game: assess the penalty and let the chips fall where they may. I agree with Luke's philosophy of enforcing the rules, at least up to the standards set by my state and my association.

[Blue37]

Originally Posted by Welpe

I think if this player did not participate in the previous down, you have rule support from case book play 1.5.1G (a) to send the player off to have it corrected. If he did participate and you know for a fact he did, you don't have much choice on this by rule.

I agree and am posting the rule for those without access to a book.
1-5-5 "When any required player equipment is missing or when illegal equipment is found, correction shall be made before participation. An official’s time-out shall be declared to permit prompt repair of equipment which becomes illegal or defective through use. (See 3-5-2b, 5b and 7f)"

I do not think you can delay the ready in this situation. The equipment did not become illegal or defective through use. So I would go ahead with the ready. If they can get a pad in and get the ball snapped within 25, all is well. Otherwise, they can spend a timeout or take the delay penalty.

[ajmc]

Any statement can be taken to an extreme where it becomes counterproductive. "We need to look for ways to have a good game and NOT impact the outcome." is absolutely correct, unless of course, you extend it far beyond what it was intended to suggest.

We are absolutely "out there to do what is fair" as directed by the rules and our common sense application of those rules. Common sense and an understanding of why we're there may well be our most important contribution to the game. Managing the game in compliance with the rules is the stated objective, but not a single one of us, knows the rules so well that we can guarantee absolutely correct compliance in every situation, no matter how unique or rare.

Our role is to make decisions (hopefully informed decisions) instantly in response to any number of situations we may never have confronted before. We do not have the luxury of detailed perusal of the rules for each decision, other than what exists in our personal memory banks.

There will be times when those memory banks, including those of all crew mwmbers, simply don't produce a difinitive answer, and all we're left with is our own common sense, an understanding of the object of the game and a personal sense of fairness, to get us through.

Despite all the hype and pressure some choose to place on the outcome of any High School (even College or Professional) football game, it's not going to really effect how the sun comes up tomorrow.

[JasonTX]

Without seeing this player on the field and participating it I would have a hard time penalizing them at the point when the coach pointed it out. "Coach, we didn't catch it the play before but we are going to make sure it doesn't happen again." I've had games where pads did come out during the play. No foul there. Send them off and get it fixed.

[Jimmie24]

As an official we are to enforce the rules. I believe, but not being Merriam Webster, so I could be wrong but mandatory means that it must be worn. The penalty for the coach sending out a player without the mandatory equipment is the 15 yard USC. If we catch it during a play, we could always throw the 5 yard failure to wear penalty.

In my opinion, the officals were right at that time for the penalty. They have no choice but to enforce the rules as they are written. There is no room for philosphy here. Philosophy would have been earlier in the game and doing preventive officiating. Look at the players as the come on and off the field. If they would have noticed the kicker didn't have the pad, send him off early in the game. Fix the problem then. Obviously the other coaches saw it. Of course that could have been from watching film.

To me, that is a smart play by the coach.

[daggo66]

Originally Posted by Blue37

I agree and am posting the rule for those without access to a book.
1-5-5 "When any required player equipment is missing or when illegal equipment is found, correction shall be made before participation. An official’s time-out shall be declared to permit prompt repair of equipment which becomes illegal or defective through use. (See 3-5-2b, 5b and 7f)"

I do not think you can delay the ready in this situation. The equipment did not become illegal or defective through use. So I would go ahead with the ready. If they can get a pad in and get the ball snapped within 25, all is well. Otherwise, they can spend a timeout or take the delay penalty.

You are forgetting that 1.5.5 comes with a USC penalty enforcement.

[JamesBond]

Originally Posted by Jimmie24

As an official we are to enforce the rules. I believe, but not being Merriam Webster, so I could be wrong but mandatory means that it must be worn. The penalty for the coach sending out a player without the mandatory equipment is the 15 yard USC. If we catch it during a play, we could always throw the 5 yard failure to wear penalty.

In my opinion, the officals were right at that time for the penalty. They have no choice but to enforce the rules as they are written. There is no room for philosphy here. Philosophy would have been earlier in the game and doing preventive officiating. Look at the players as the come on and off the field. If they would have noticed the kicker didn't have the pad, send him off early in the game. Fix the problem then. Obviously the other coaches saw it. Of course that could have been from watching film.

To me, that is a smart play by the coach.

Player should be sent off to correct the problem if the play has not started.
I bet a quick look at both teams on the field will show at least one player with a shirt untucked. ; ) Call the penalty against both teams and get on with the game. 007

[sloth]

Originally Posted by waltjp

This is a garbage statement. We're officials and we're out there to enforce the rules, not to invoke our sense of fairness. Sometimes you have to make the game impacting call. Sometimes you have to enforce a rule that impacts the game. If you're not willing to make the call or enforce the rule that will impact the game you may as well stay home because you're not doing your job.

So your going to tell me that you call every rule in the book, every play...no exceptions? We warn players all the time about stuff. How many times do we over look holding or a BIB that is not severe or at the point of attack? So as a referee, had the coach not noticed the missing tailpad and you had,would you have hit him for a 15 yard USC? If not, then the coach just talked you into a call you would not have made otherwise.

I've been starting to dabble in DIII JV games. I've taken a lot of great high level concepts from the meetings I've been to. One of them is "not to be a pioneer"-don't look for inventive ways to enforce the rules. Another is "make the foul matter if your going to enforce if it's in a close game"...in other words don't be too technical in close games. Yes, we may impact the outcome of a game, but it has to matter to the game.

The equipment rules are there to insure the safety of the players. If the coach notices that a piece of equipment is missing, you should thank him for his attention to detail, stop the game to fix the problem then play on. The absence of a tailpad didn't give one team an advantage over the other...why have a game decidd because an official decided that he was going to lay down the law and mak an example of a situation.

At the end of the day, I'd rather be known as the offical that used good prudent judgement it that situation to address an issue in a non-impactful way as opposed to an official that knocked a team out of field goal range because of a missing tailbone pad. I'd venture a guess that 9 out of 10 coaches would agree that is the proper way to handle this foul.

[waltjp]

Originally Posted by sloth

So your going to tell me that you call every rule in the book, every play...no exceptions?

Go back and read my post again. That's not even close to what I wrote and it's not relevant to the situation.