Scrimmage Kick Numbering Exception

[OverAndBack]

There was no shift in the original example, was there?

[Mike L]

for NFHS, the only thing the shift has done is #17 becomes ineligible by position. #47 remains ineligible due to initial position. So trying to shift around like this can only result in fewer eligible receivers for A.

[refbuz]

Originally Posted by OverAndBack

There was no shift in the original example, was there?

No. Merely bringing a "what-if" to the discussion.

[Welpe]

Thanks refbuz. I'm just starting to learn NCAA rules (moving to Texas next year) so I am asking questions where I can.

[refbuz]

Originally Posted by Welpe

Thanks refbuz. I'm just starting to learn NCAA rules (moving to Texas next year) so I am asking questions where I can.

This is my 1st year in college, its not that bad, I think that enforcements are relatively easier, it just takes more concentration to not kick an enforcement that confuses the 2.

It turns out that we just discussed the rule a couple weeks ago. That is the main reason that I know it.

[Tom Hinrichs]

In NF rules, the formation is legal after the shift. However, #47 remains inelligible.

[jjrye22]

Refbuz - I'm not sure why you have called this shift example as an illegal formation.
The shift has made #17 inelligible, and #47 stays inelligible, but as long as he stays on the line he is still just a lineman.
I don't remember anything about the last man on the line having a requirement to be an elligible receiver as your post implies.

Whould you really flag this at the snap as illegal formation? Or just keep an eye on #47 since he was inelligible by rule even if not by position?

Just want to get full clarification.

[refbuz]

Originally Posted by jjrye22

Refbuz - I'm not sure why you have called this shift example as an illegal formation.

I'm an Umpire, so I can say with reasonable certainty that a formation foul will NEVER be my foul, but whether it is a foul or not depends on the rules being used.

With NCAA rules it's a foul (1-4-2(b)/A.R. 1-4-2 IV/V).

In NFHS it is not a foul, as K's "penalty" for the shift is losing an eligible receiver.

The shift has made #17 inelligible, and #47 stays inelligible, but as long as he stays on the line he is still just a lineman.
I don't remember anything about the last man on the line having a requirement to be an elligible receiver as your post implies.

I merely asked IF they shift who's LOOKING FOR WHAT.

I think that we can all agree that if something messed up is gonna happen during a game, its gonna happen on a punt.

The point of my post was to get some input to see who's got 47 to make sure that he's not going downfield on fakes or if it breaks down. In HS, he is inelligible and remains that way, but who is looking for it?

What if they shift, run a fake, and pass it to 47. He catches a pass and advances for a TD.

Who's responsibility is it to make sure that 47 doesn't go downfield and catch the game changing TD? Is it solely the umpire's call? Is there help from the wings? Does the number of officials on the field change who would catch that?

That's a train-wreck that we HAVE to catch.

It's an easy foul to get if 47 is the long-snapper and goes downfield and catches or doesn't catch the ball. Based on where 47 is lined up in this formation that call is not as easy to make.

This is kinda the direction i was looking to go.

Whould you really flag this at the snap as illegal formation? Or just keep an eye on #47 since he was inelligible by rule even if not by position?

In a college game? I would absolutely expect the wings to throw it because it is a foul, not in a HS game though.

Just want to get full clarification.

I hope that you got it.

[mbyron]

The A-11 has now hit the mainstream media -- that should get FED's attention.
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/10/17/sp...17offense.html

[OverAndBack]

Originally Posted by mbyron

The A-11 has now hit the mainstream media -- that should get FED's attention.
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/10/17/sp...17offense.html

Okay, tell me if I'm wrong:



Seven players on the LOS are 1-7 (the numbers in the schematic, not their jersey numbers, which we can't discern)
Eligible receivers have yellow dots (two guys on the end of the line and the three backs - technically I suppose the quarterback could be an eligible receiver as well?)
Ineligible receivers have red dots.
We don't know at what point this photo was taken, but if we presume this is everybody's initial positions, those are the eligibles, correct?

Doesn't seem that complicated. The spreading out of the formation makes it look funky, but they have seven guys on the line, and anybody between the ends who is numbered 1-49 or 80-99 can take the place of someone numbered 50-79 as there is a player seven yards behind the snapper ready to receive the snap. Is that correct?

Simple fixes that put the A11 guy out of business: remove the exception, and say you must have five guys between the ends numbered 50-79, period. Or that the scrimmage kick formation that triggers the exception can only be used on fourth down or in an obvious punting situation (start the debate about "obvious punting situation,").

[rockyroad]

Originally Posted by mbyron

The A-11 has now hit the mainstream media -- that should get FED's attention.
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/10/17/sp...17offense.html

Here are the scores from Piedmont High School games - running the revolutionary A-11 offense.

9/06/08 @ Drake L, 7-21
9/12/08 vs. Stallworth L, 34-61
9/20/08 @ Laguna Beach W, 17-15
10/03/08 vs. St. Mary’s W, 35-14
10/10/08 vs. Encinal L, 18-39

Wow – 111 points in five games. No other offense could possibly put up those kinds of numbers.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by rockyroad

Here are the scores from Piedmont High School games - running the revolutionary A-11 offense.

9/06/08 @ Drake L, 7-21
9/12/08 vs. Stallworth L, 34-61
9/20/08 @ Laguna Beach W, 17-15
10/03/08 vs. St. Mary’s W, 35-14
10/10/08 vs. Encinal L, 18-39

Wow – 111 points in five games. No other offense could possibly put up those kinds of numbers.

Seems like Piedmont could spend more time working on DEFENSE, too.

[OverAndBack]

Next up: the B11 defense.

(CANADIAN RULING: )

[Mike L]

The quotes by the "innovator" of this mess are laughable at best. And what happened to all those officials he claimed would be singing the praises of his mess in this piece?
And finally, in our area the quoted "only the center is on the line, everyone else is back and then 6 comes to the line" generates a formation violation. Initial positioning is 10 in the backfield, therefore violating the numbering exception rule.

[KurtBryan]

Originally Posted by RichMSN

Seems like Piedmont could spend more time working on DEFENSE, too.

Dear Officials:

Thanks for following the Highlanders so closely, and in order to paint a realistic picture of how our team and some of the others are doing around the country nationwide running the A-11 Offense, please read below, and you guys can now watch the first A-11 Offense Top Ten Plays of the Week from teams around the nation at www.A11Offense.com

Regarding some officials opinions about the A-11 definitely being able to be officiated properly, please read the Philadelphia Inquirer's article quoting Pennsylvania NFHS member, Brad Cashman, very favorable indeed for teams needing to use the A-11, etc.

Please take a look at some of the schools using the A-11 throughout various parts of the country, and then we’ll examine what they are doing with it, and how they are doing:

Piedmont High - CA, Saddleback Valley Christian - CA, Trimble County - KY, Madison County - AL, Mission SF - CA, Riverside-Brookfield - IL, Horizon Christian - OR, Gar-Pal - WA, Tullahoma - TN, Arvada-West, CO, and American School – Japan.

Piedmont is 2 – 3 overall and has expanded it’s A-11 scheme beyond its initial season of use in 2007 to employ more motion, shotgun zone fly concepts, leads, counters and waggles. The Highlanders have hung tough with two outstanding football teams loaded with Division 1A talent: Bishop Stallworth and Encinal, powerhouse football teams that defeated Piedmont.

Saddleback Valley Christian, CA (SVCS): The Warriors are 5 – 0, and have incredible team speed but not much size. Their A-11 Offense is thrilling to watch and sometimes their players are moving at such a rapid rate, it appears as if the actual video speed is on fast-forward. In addition to the base system of the A-11, SVCS has incorporated massive amounts of motion, reverses and sweeps, again everything being executed in hyper-drive.

Madison County, AL: Madison is 6 – 0 using various A-11 packages to let their talented players operate in wide-open space scattered about the field. Their precision passing game is worthy to note.

Mission – SF: The Bears are 4 – 2, with remarkably gifted athletes in a few key positions, such as RB and two of the WR spots. For the first time in more than 45 years, the Bears have chance to compete for the San Francisco AAA title, something that would be a tremendous accomplishment for a school that almost tanked its football program five years ago.

Riverside-Brookfield, IL: The Bulldogs are hot, after dropping their first 3 games of the season, they are rolling after four straight wins, and in sole possession of 1st place in their Metro Suburban conference at 2 – 0 in league. The Bulldogs SUPER spread out, “pass until hell freezes over” offense is a thing of beauty to behold when clicking on all cylinders.

Trimble County, KY: The Raiders are struggling after having won their opener. Their QB is a physical workhouse type of athlete who rushed for over 200 yards in one game in their trapping, jet sweep and counter trey A-11 system. However, their team is severely overmatched talent-wise, and a few heartbreaking losses have helped to make this a tough season. Hopefully, Trimble will catch a few breaks in their last 4 games of the season.

Arvada-West, CO: They are 5 - 2 overall, and after trailing rival powerhouse Pomona 10 - 0, Arvada changed things up and went to their own version of the A-11 offense, and scored 23 points to finally win the game.

Horizon Christian, OR: Horizon is 2-3 overall, not bad considering they are very young across the board talent wise. Horizon utilizes a lot of “run and shoot” principles in their system, and with each game their youthful team gains valuable experience.

Gar-Pal, WA: Gar-Pal used their own version of Bubble Screen and Fake Bubble Screen in the A-11 to get a come from behind win recently when pretty much everything else in their traditional offense was struggling. Utilizing some aspects of the A-11 helped them earn the victory, and now they are planning on implementing much more A-11.

Tullahoma, TN: The Wildcats are 5-2 overall and use a punishing running game in their own version of the A-11. Their ferocious attack featuring leads, counters and draws is a force to be reckoned with.
American School in Japan (ASIJ): They are 3-2, having lost some tough games, and earned a few hard fought victories. Their detailed and precise passing attack is worthy of mention, as is their movement passing game.

As can be witnessed by a sampling of a few teams using the A-11, and as is the case with teams using any type of offensive system, some A-11 teams are winning games, and some of those teams are not. Winning enough games depends upon: strength of schedule, talent, coaching, injuries, weather and the amount of bad breaks a team must overcome during each game and the season. Sometimes things go your way…and sometimes they don’t.

Does the A-11 Offense have a place in the future of high school football & beyond?

Yes, the sheer amount of small to mid-size high schools nationwide that can benefit by having the option of using the A-11 is undeniable. Since our coaching staff decided to share everything we developed and learned about the A-11 after the 2007 season, we have been inundated with phone calls and emails from thousands of coaches worldwide who have been searching for a better way to help make their smaller squads more competitive vs. larger foes, and the A-11 does just that.

The A-11 simply gives the smaller schools more of a fighting chance to compete. And, the A-11 greatly reduces injuries to the players, because they are more spread out across the field of play – resulting in less gang tackling and horrific pile-ups, where most of the severe injuries occur in football.

With testimonies of officials nationwide well documented on this web site and others, and in articles posted and forthcoming that the A-11 is indeed workable, and with smaller schools now given an opportunity to be even more competitive and safer when utilizing the A-11, it has become incredibly clear in rapid sense that the A-11 is here to stay.

What does that mean for the future of high school football for NFHS schools?

The A-11 meets and/or exceeds all of the criteria listed in the NFHS rules book and the NFHS mission statement. In reality, there is no need for the powers-that-be to try and outlaw the A-11 Offense for all of the reasons listed in this essay and others.

In fact, an even stronger case could be made for the NFHS to either:

1. Change nothing, because the A-11 has proven to be beneficial for the kids

2. Create a new Federation or Exception within NFHS for the A-11 Offense


As Always, your opinions and respectful comments are appreciated.

Have a great weekend,

KB