Measurement

[Bob M.]

Originally Posted by Ed Hickland

For NFHS rules the ball cannot, by rule, be substituted. You can only replace a ball at the start of a series.

REPLY: Ed, I don't believe that's quite what the rule says. It says that a team may designate a ball to use at the start of a series, but it never says that the officials are not allowed to substitute a ball. What do you do when there's a long incomplete pass downfield? Do you wait for the BJ or wing to retrieve it and relay it back to the umpire at the previous spot?

If at all possible, we will get a new ball when the measurement shows that they were short of the LTG. Reason is in case the chain link marking position of the ball is pulled from the R's hand as he walks to the inbounds line, the old ball at the spot can be used once more as a reference point.

[Ed Hickland]

Originally Posted by Bob M.

REPLY: Ed, I don't believe that's quite what the rule says. It says that a team may designate a ball to use at the start of a series, but it never says that the officials are not allowed to substitute a ball. What do you do when there's a long incomplete pass downfield? Do you wait for the BJ or wing to retrieve it and relay it back to the umpire at the previous spot?

If at all possible, we will get a new ball when the measurement shows that they were short of the LTG. Reason is in case the chain link marking position of the ball is pulled from the R's hand as he walks to the inbounds line, the old ball at the spot can be used once more as a reference point.

NFHS Case Book 1.3.2 Situation A basically states you must use the same ball for an entire series and considers the try an extension of the series.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by Ed Hickland

For NFHS rules the ball cannot, by rule, be substituted. You can only replace a ball at the start of a series.

Huh? THEY cannot substitute a ball, but we most certainly can. You chase long incomplete passes downfield instead of getting a ball from the ball boy? What if the weather's wet, you never bring in a dry football?

[Ed Hickland]

Originally Posted by RichMSN

Huh? THEY cannot substitute a ball, but we most certainly can. You chase long incomplete passes downfield instead of getting a ball from the ball boy? What if the weather's wet, you never bring in a dry football?

The rule is pretty specific NFHS 1-3-2 and Case Book 1.3.2 Situation A. The intent of the rule is that once you start a series that particular ball must be used for the entire series. Notice the Case Book cites four different situations (1) requesting a rubber ball on 2nd down after using a leather ball on 1st, (2) requesting a different leather ball for 4th down on a dry day (3) requests a different leather ball for the try (4) A recovers on a kickoff. Only 4 is allowed.

NFHS 1-3-3 does allow changing balls during a down if the ball is wet.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by Ed Hickland

The rule is pretty specific NFHS 1-3-2 and Case Book 1.3.2 Situation A. The intent of the rule is that once you start a series that particular ball must be used for the entire series. Notice the Case Book cites four different situations (1) requesting a rubber ball on 2nd down after using a leather ball on 1st, (2) requesting a different leather ball for 4th down on a dry day (3) requests a different leather ball for the try (4) A recovers on a kickoff. Only 4 is allowed.

NFHS 1-3-3 does allow changing balls during a down if the ball is wet.

Yup. All of those are places where the TEAM requests a change. Again, I can change it at any time. Nothing stops ME from doing so. We do it all the time, when the ball is incomplete deep.

[MrUmpire]

Originally Posted by Ed Hickland

The rule is pretty specific NFHS 1-3-2 and Case Book 1.3.2 Situation A. The intent of the rule is that once you start a series that particular ball must be used for the entire series. Notice the Case Book cites four different situations (1) requesting a rubber ball on 2nd down after using a leather ball on 1st, (2) requesting a different leather ball for 4th down on a dry day (3) requests a different leather ball for the try (4) A recovers on a kickoff. Only 4 is allowed.

NFHS 1-3-3 does allow changing balls during a down if the ball is wet.

Once again, by failing to understand the intent of a rule, an official creates problems for himself and the game.

The intent of the rule is specific: It prohibits the TEAMS from requesting a change of ball. It DOES NOT prohibit the officials from substituting a new ball when appropriate. Bringing one in after a long incomplete where the ball bounds another 20 plus yards out of bounds to keep the flow of the game moving is very appropriate.

[Ed Hickland]

Originally Posted by MrUmpire

Once again, by failing to understand the intent of a rule, an official creates problems for himself and the game.

The intent of the rule is specific: It prohibits the TEAMS from requesting a change of ball. It DOES NOT prohibit the officials from substituting a new ball when appropriate. Bringing one in after a long incomplete where the ball bounds another 20 plus yards out of bounds to keep the flow of the game moving is very appropriate.

Not to belabor the point but the rule is designed to keep teams from getting their favorite ball in on certain situations. Read the NFHS Officials' Manual page 67 III.B.5.c as it says nothing about getting a new ball.

Officials can replace balls when wet but dry balls must be used for the entire series.

That is the rule as it applies to the game including officials.

But I do like and wish we could use the procedure you use.

[MrUmpire]

Originally Posted by Ed Hickland

Not to belabor the point but the rule is designed to keep teams from getting their favorite ball in on certain situations.

Exactly. It is NOT about prohibiting an official from substituting a ball.

Glad we can agree.

[Ed Hickland]

Originally Posted by MrUmpire

Exactly. It is NOT about prohibiting an official from substituting a ball.

Glad we can agree.

It is not that we are in agreement it is just that I like the way you replace balls. But I would not do it and know that it is incorrect according to NFHS Rules -- in your area this may be the practice although incorrect.

Again, the rules I quoted from NFHS and the Officials Manual dictate a ball stays for an entire series and NOWHERE does it give officials the authority to replace balls during a series unless the ball is wet.

[ajmc]

Sometimes it's easy to read more into a rule than is intended. A team is limited from substituting a ball within a series of downs, but there is no prohibition, or limit, relating to officials substituting a ball when circumstances dictate, because such a prohibition would be impractical and serve no rational purpose.

As long as the ball being substituted is an approved ball, which can either be a ball approved prior to the game, or any ball approved for use during the game, even if at the moment of exchange.

Above all else, the sensible application of rules requires common sense.

[Ed Hickland]

Originally Posted by ajmc

Sometimes it's easy to read more into a rule than is intended. A team is limited from substituting a ball within a series of downs, but there is no prohibition, or limit, relating to officials substituting a ball when circumstances dictate, because such a prohibition would be impractical and serve no rational purpose.

As long as the ball being substituted is an approved ball, which can either be a ball approved prior to the game, or any ball approved for use during the game, even if at the moment of exchange.

Above all else, the sensible application of rules requires common sense.

I'm not reading more into the rule about replacing balls, I'm reading the rules NFHS 1-3-2 and 1-3-3 as written supported by Case Book 1.3.2 which is seems many are not reading or understanding.

When officials on their own decide the rules do not apply to officials we set a dangerous precedence. Why do you think the Rules Committe writes the stupid book. Surprise! they actually expect us to enforce it like it or not. There is a procedure for modifying rules -- write to NFHS with your suggestions -- when you don't like them. Example, post scrimmage kick, many coaches and officials did not like the way penalties by R before change of possession gavethe ball back to K. It got changed, even though, some officials were enforcing their own version of it.

Trust me. The Rule Book is clear on when balls can be replaced and since I am not working with those who feel otherwise, have at it!

[MrUmpire]

Originally Posted by Ed Hickland

It is not that we are in agreement it is just that I like the way you replace balls. But I would not do it and know that it is incorrect according to NFHS Rules -- in your area this may be the practice although incorrect.

Again, the rules I quoted from NFHS and the Officials Manual dictate a ball stays for an entire series and NOWHERE does it give officials the authority to replace balls during a series unless the ball is wet.

Using your misguided and incorrect logic, an official couldn't replace a ball that became deflated or even lost. The game would end.

It seems strange you can take part of the rule, that portion that limits replacing a ball, so literally, but you don't take the part the specifically refers to the TEAM, and no one else, as literally.

There is absolutely NOTHING in the rules that prohibits the official from replacing a ball for any reason. Nothing.

I am amazed that someone with the education you allege could be so void of logic.

[daggo66]

Ed, what do you do in the rain? Do you mean to tell me that you don't allow the use of a dry ball?

[Bad Mood Risin]

Ed, I'm pretty sure you're alone in a crowd on this one. Let me see if I can expand on the place where the disconnect is, and if anyone disagrees with me, that's fine, too.

The case plays you cite, where a team wants to use a "different" leather ball are interpreted by all of us to mean a nice, new Wilson 1001 is being sent off so an old, smooth pumpkin that used to say Spalding is sent in to punt. Both are leather, but they're "different." Everyone here would agree that aint gonna happen.

But if a crew has checked a team's footballs before the game, marked them all, and they are all fully inflated, new nike footballs, we can replace one nice new football with another identical new, marked and approved football whenever we dang well please and it's not a "different" ball. Physically, it's not the exact same football, but in essence, it is.

[Rich]

We approve anywhere from 2-5 footballs before a game. Any of those are equal as far as we're concerned. The teams may not substitute them willy-nilly, but we can. I have never heard of an area where the officials didn't and I've officiated in 6 states.