Measurement "courtesy"

[Rich]

Last night I was in the fourth quarter of a 47-7 game with a running clock.

Visiting team is winning and has the ball with second/third string players in. Third down. Play leaves the offense a ball length or two short, but definitely short. I came up to the ball, looked across, declared it short, heard my umpire say it definitely was short, and was getting ready to put it in play.

Then the offensive coordinator requests a measurement. I declined. I told him, "it's definitely short," and marked it ready for play.

Next, the offense calls a timeout and decides that they want to spend the minute arguing the fact that I wouldn't measure. The offensive coordinator walked behind the post of the chain and was saying that it was definitely a first down.

I'll be quite honest here. Little piggies could've started falling from the sky at this point and I still wouldn't have called for the chains. Instead of getting his second and third string players some valuable experience converting a fourth down, the coach decided to take it out on me and my linesman. I ignored the coaches for 45 seconds, talking with the umpire marking my card, and then blew my whistle calling for the teams.

They got a yard on fourth down and moved the chains.

I'm convinced that some officials bring the chains out whenever a coach requests it. Unfortunately, my experience is that coaches always think we should measure anytime it's less than a yard for a first down and I have no problem declining the request when it's CLEAR to me that we are short of a first down.

I have no problem measuring when warranted. We brought the chains out four times last night. I will use the chains to move the football when it's stopped in the side zone and getting an extremely accurate spot at the hash mark is crucial.

OK, white hats. Is a request for a measurement a rubber stamp for you guys, or what?

--Rich

[Forksref]

Rich,

I am with you 110%. I do NOT measure unless *I* think it is required. It must be an old wives' tale that any request for a measurement must be granted. Last night we had a situation where the L had a spot and his foot was about 4" beyond the lead stake. I've got a first down! He was standing a coupl e of feet inbounds but was in very close proximity to the stake. No problem, FD!

[bisonlj]

We picked up a new technique this year from some college officials. When spotting the ball on a first down, try to spot it with the nose of the football touching a yard line. This only works if you have hashes on the field. For example, if the first down is gained between the 22 and 23, spot the ball with the nose touching either the 22 or 23 (whichever is closer).

This makes it easier for the chains to get placed and makes it much easier to determine if the offense has reached the line to gain. If the field is marked properly you can know the line to gain was reached if the nose of the ball is at least touching the yard hash. If you aren't doing this, I recommend trying it.

[Ref inSoCA]

Originally Posted by Rich Fronheiser

Last night I was in the fourth quarter of a 47-7 game with a running clock.

Visiting team is winning and has the ball with second/third string players in. Third down. Play leaves the offense a ball length or two short, but definitely short. I came up to the ball, looked across, declared it short, heard my umpire say it definitely was short, and was getting ready to put it in play.

Then the offensive coordinator requests a measurement. I declined. I told him, "it's definitely short," and marked it ready for play.

Next, the offense calls a timeout and decides that they want to spend the minute arguing the fact that I wouldn't measure. The offensive coordinator walked behind the post of the chain and was saying that it was definitely a first down.

I'll be quite honest here. Little piggies could've started falling from the sky at this point and I still wouldn't have called for the chains. Instead of getting his second and third string players some valuable experience converting a fourth down, the coach decided to take it out on me and my linesman. I ignored the coaches for 45 seconds, talking with the umpire marking my card, and then blew my whistle calling for the teams.

They got a yard on fourth down and moved the chains.

I'm convinced that some officials bring the chains out whenever a coach requests it. Unfortunately, my experience is that coaches always think we should measure anytime it's less than a yard for a first down and I have no problem declining the request when it's CLEAR to me that we are short of a first down.

I have no problem measuring when warranted. We brought the chains out four times last night. I will use the chains to move the football when it's stopped in the side zone and getting an extremely accurate spot at the hash mark is crucial.

OK, white hats. Is a request for a measurement a rubber stamp for you guys, or what?

--Rich

Agree with a previous comment. If I think it needs to be measured, I will measure. Otherwise, no.

[cougar729]

90 percent of the time, when its not really significant we always mark a 1st down on a yard line. Makes it so much eaiser to say, "Coach, we started right on the 24, and the ball is sitting on the 34, thats a 1st down." Move the Chains!

[CruiseMan]

Originally Posted by Rich Fronheiser

Then the offensive coordinator requests a measurement. I declined. I told him, "it's definitely short," and marked it ready for play.

Just to note. Your out here is that you blew the ball ready for play. NO request for a mesurement is granted once the ball is ready for play (NFHS 5.3.2). The can call all three timeouts and we're still not measuring.

You did the right thing.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by cougar729

90 percent of the time, when its not really significant we always mark a 1st down on a yard line. Makes it so much eaiser to say, "Coach, we started right on the 24, and the ball is sitting on the 34, thats a 1st down." Move the Chains!

You should've seen this field. Five yard lines and nothing else.

[shave-tail]

I too had game "JH" that 3 of us said, "thought" it was short. My game was very close though. The ball was resting in the middle of the 20 yardline and yard to gain was 6 to 8 inches beyond that. Coach was wanting a measurement and I wouldn't grant it. He calls timeout so I said what the heck I'll do it. Linesman brings them in (3 man crew) so I grab the stick and as soon as I did I though "Oh, !@#$", the ball was beyond by about 2 feet. The new mechanic of having the sticks off the field 6 feet they must have gotton off "a little bit" so with that little oops I will start measuring more often. Don't beat me up too much, I've just started white hatting some this year.

[Forksref]

Originally Posted by Rich Fronheiser

You should've seen this field. Five yard lines and nothing else.

When I run into fields that are improperly marked, I notify the game management and I also notify the state.

[GoodwillRef]

Originally Posted by Rich Fronheiser

Last night I was in the fourth quarter of a 47-7 game with a running clock.

Visiting team is winning and has the ball with second/third string players in. Third down. Play leaves the offense a ball length or two short, but definitely short. I came up to the ball, looked across, declared it short, heard my umpire say it definitely was short, and was getting ready to put it in play.

Then the offensive coordinator requests a measurement. I declined. I told him, "it's definitely short," and marked it ready for play.

Next, the offense calls a timeout and decides that they want to spend the minute arguing the fact that I wouldn't measure. The offensive coordinator walked behind the post of the chain and was saying that it was definitely a first down.

I'll be quite honest here. Little piggies could've started falling from the sky at this point and I still wouldn't have called for the chains. Instead of getting his second and third string players some valuable experience converting a fourth down, the coach decided to take it out on me and my linesman. I ignored the coaches for 45 seconds, talking with the umpire marking my card, and then blew my whistle calling for the teams.

They got a yard on fourth down and moved the chains.

I'm convinced that some officials bring the chains out whenever a coach requests it. Unfortunately, my experience is that coaches always think we should measure anytime it's less than a yard for a first down and I have no problem declining the request when it's CLEAR to me that we are short of a first down.

I have no problem measuring when warranted. We brought the chains out four times last night. I will use the chains to move the football when it's stopped in the side zone and getting an extremely accurate spot at the hash mark is crucial.

OK, white hats. Is a request for a measurement a rubber stamp for you guys, or what?

--Rich

Rich,

I agree with you, some coaches just want you to measure so they can have an extra time-out to think about their next play. If I look over and think it may be even somewhat close I will measure, but if it isn't even close I will just tell the coach it is short. On Friday I had one that was a yard past and a first down and the defense yipped a little and I asked the captain if he wanted to "look at" with me, he said thanks but they have it.

If it is fourth down and it is a 20-19 game with 15 seconds left in the 4th quarter I may be a little more accommodating.

[JasonTX]

Once you decide it's short and state it out loud, then don't measure afterwards. I learned early in my career the hard way. The coach was sure it was a first down and I was sure it was not. So, I decided to measure just so he'd see I was right. Guess what? I was wrong. They got it by the nose of the ball. Now, anything close or when I hear a coach hollerin "they're short" I don't say a word I just measure so they can see. If they are just hollerin in an attempt to get an extra timeout and it's obvious that it's a first or not, then we don't measure.

[Trap]

To be the Devil's advocate. This is probably not in response to original post, but an observation. Why are we always in a hurry to signal first down? To me there are many close spots, that automatically get called first downs or called short. I do believe there is a diference from a ball that is 1/2 yard short and one that is inches. We don't want to measure everything, but a spot that looks like a couple inches short or long may not be.

[sloth]

On the flip side of this arguement...had a situation Friday night where it was 2nd or 3rd and almost 6 yards to go. B encroaches. The U walks off five yards, but must have taken some big step (very poorly lined field). When he spots that ball, it was past the chains. We all knew that it was short but as the LJ I had to try and deal with a coach that was looking over my shoulder at a ball that was clearly a foot or so beyond the chains line to gain.

[mcrowder]

Originally Posted by sloth

On the flip side of this arguement...had a situation Friday night where it was 2nd or 3rd and almost 6 yards to go. B encroaches. The U walks off five yards, but must have taken some big step (very poorly lined field). When he spots that ball, it was past the chains. We all knew that it was short but as the LJ I had to try and deal with a coach that was looking over my shoulder at a ball that was clearly a foot or so beyond the chains line to gain.

What happened to the mechanic of having L walk off the penalty as well - surely this sitch could have and should have been corrected.

[mcrowder]

Originally Posted by Rich Fronheiser

You should've seen this field. Five yard lines and nothing else.

On a horribly lined field, I'm more likely to give the coach a little leeway on his requests. Sure - it may seem obvious from the center of the field, but might be much closer than you think, and it's entirely possible a coach would call a different play 4th and inches vs 4th and 2 feet.