Expanded neutral zone

[phansen]

A1 drops back to throw a screen pass beyond the LOS. Offensive linemen block defenders and then let them through. Can the offensive lineman be in the expanded (2 yard) neutral zone or do they have to stay behind the LOS until the ball is thrown?

[Mike L]

They can be in the ENZ.

[MRH]

As long as the pass is completed behind the neutral zone the lineman can be in the neutral zone or beyond it.

[ajmc]

Under the NF code, offensive linemen can be in an expanded NZ (up to 2 yards) before any legal forward pass THAT CROSSES THE NZ is in flight. There is no limiting restriction on how far downfield they may go on a pass that is completed BEHIND the NZ.

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by MRH

As long as the pass is completed behind the neutral zone the lineman can be in the neutral zone or beyond it.

Originally Posted by ajmc

There is no limiting restriction on how far downfield they may go on a pass that is completed BEHIND the NZ.

Fellas, re-read what he wrote.

"A1 drops back to throw a screen pass beyond the LOS."

[bisonlj]

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

Fellas, re-read what he wrote.

"A1 drops back to throw a screen pass beyond the LOS."

Good catch...I mis-read that as well.

If I read the rule (7-5-12), he can be in the expanded neutral zone but not beyond it. There is an exception if he blocks B immediately after the snap, he can be in the expanded neutral zone but that doesn't really seem like an exception since the first line says he can be there anyway.

In this example, the ineligible receivers may be legally in the expanded neutral zone but not beyond it on this play.

[OverAndBack]

Here's a similar situation from a recent game:

A11 comes out wide on the left side of the formation, on the line (guy on the end, eligible receiver). A9 is ALSO a wideout, but is inside A11, where a slot would normally be, but HE'S on the line.

So A9 is ineligible by virtue of being "covered up," correct?

A9 goes downfield at the snap along with A11. A1 throws a short pass into the flat on the other side of the field that is tipped by B2 and completed to A8.

Now, do you flag A9 as soon as he goes downfield for ineligible receiver downfield?

The pass did cross the neutral zone (but just barely - it was close enough to get together and ask). If it hadn't, you'd have picked up the flag, correct?

Our WH waved off the flag because the ball was tipped by B2 (which, of course, made everybody on A eligible). Was that the right call? Does the tip "buy back" eligibility for a player who was ineligible at the snap and who went downfield (a foul)?

[ajmc]

Under NFHS rules; 7.5.12 "Ineligible A players may not advance beyond the eapanded NZ on a legal forward pass play before a legal forward pass that crosses the NZ is in flight. If B touches the pass in or behind the NZ, this restriction is terminated....."

The inside A player is ineligible if; he goes beyond the ENZ and the legal forward pass crosses the line, except if it was touched by B, in or behind, the NZ. Your Referee was correct.

[rockyroad]

Originally Posted by OverAndBack

So A9 is ineligible by virtue of being "covered up," correct?


Now, do you flag A9 as soon as he goes downfield for ineligible receiver downfield?

Maybe I'm missing your point here, but wouldn't you at least wait to make sure it was a pass? Or is that one of those things that is so obvious that you just didn't put it in your post?

[OverAndBack]

It was obviously a pass, but I can see your point in that what obviously begins as a pass doesn't necessarily end up as a pass.

So should you hold the flag in that case until it actually turns into a pass AND it's not tipped or thrown behind the neutral zone? As opposed to throwing it and picking it up later?

[bisonlj]

Originally Posted by OverAndBack

It was obviously a pass, but I can see your point in that what obviously begins as a pass doesn't necessarily end up as a pass.

So should you hold the flag in that case until it actually turns into a pass AND it's not tipped or thrown behind the neutral zone? As opposed to throwing it and picking it up later?

I wait until the pass is thrown. As the wing I might not know if it was tipped or not or if the pass went beyond the neutral zone but if either of those happened, then you pick up the flag. More often than not teams intentionally cover that receiver and run out of the formation so it rarely turns into a foul.

[OverAndBack]

Gotcha. Thanks.

And if said receiver (who was covered) not only goes downfield (illegally), but then catches (or touches) a pass, you have two fouls, right? The downfield AND the illegal touching (which used to be pass interference)? And B would have their choice?

[Bob M.]

Originally Posted by rockyroad

Maybe I'm missing your point here, but wouldn't you at least wait to make sure it was a pass? Or is that one of those things that is so obvious that you just didn't put it in your post?

REPLY: Correct...you do not throw the flag until the pass crosses the neutral zone. Up until that point, you have no foul.


But...The way the original play is described, I believe you might have ineligibles downfield. I don't believe there's enough information to decide. Here's the wording of the rule

7-5-12: "Ineligible A players may not advance beyond the expanded neutral zone on a legal forward pass play before a legal forward pass that crosses the neutral zone is in flight. If B touches the pass in or behind the neutral zone, this restriction is terminated. An ineligible is not illegally downfield if, at the snap, he immediately contacts a B lineman and the contact does not continue beyond the expanded neutral zone."

The first sentence says nothing more than ineligibles are not allowed to go beyond the expanded neutral zone before the pass is in flight...ever. That's all it says. It does not say that they're always allowed into the expanded neutral zone. If it did, the last sentence would be unnecessary, and you'd have a much simpler rule.

What the last sentence does is qualify that the only ineligibles who are allowed beyond the neutral zone and into the expanded neutral zone are those who have initiated blocks against a B lineman and driven him into the expanded neutral zone. An ineligible A player who goes into the ENZ without blocking an opponent there is guilty of being illegally downfield when the pass is thrown. Therefore, you have five individual cases to evaluate--one for each ineligible: Was he beyond the NZ? If so, did he block an opponent there? And finally, did he go beyond the ENZ?

Since phansen's original play simply said that they blocked defenders and then let them through, you can't fully determine if a foul has been committed. If they blocked them into the ENZ and then let them through, everything's fine. But if they simply blocked at the LOS, let them through, and then stepped up into the ENZ, they're going to be guilty of ineligible downfield when the pass crosses the neutral zone.

[phansen]

REPLY: Correct...you do not throw the flag until the pass crosses the neutral zone. Up until that point, you have no foul.


But...The way the original play is described, I believe you might have ineligibles downfield. I don't believe there's enough information to decide. Here's the wording of the rule

7-5-12: "Ineligible A players may not advance beyond the expanded neutral zone on a legal forward pass play before a legal forward pass that crosses the neutral zone is in flight. If B touches the pass in or behind the neutral zone, this restriction is terminated. An ineligible is not illegally downfield if, at the snap, he immediately contacts a B lineman and the contact does not continue beyond the expanded neutral zone."

The first sentence says nothing more than ineligibles are not allowed to go beyond the expanded neutral zone before the pass is in flight...ever. That's all it says. It does not say that they're always allowed into the expanded neutral zone. If it did, the last sentence would be unnecessary, and you'd have a much simpler rule.

What the last sentence does is qualify that the only ineligibles who are allowed beyond the neutral zone and into the expanded neutral zone are those who have initiated blocks against a B lineman and driven him into the expanded neutral zone. An ineligible A player who goes into the ENZ without blocking an opponent there is guilty of being illegally downfield when the pass is thrown. Therefore, you have five individual cases to evaluate--one for each ineligible: Was he beyond the NZ? If so, did he block an opponent there? And finally, did he go beyond the ENZ?

Since phansen's original play simply said that they blocked defenders and then let them through, you can't fully determine if a foul has been committed. If they blocked them into the ENZ and then let them through, everything's fine. But if they simply blocked at the LOS, let them through, and then stepped up into the ENZ, they're going to be guilty of ineligible downfield when the pass crosses the neutral zone.
__________________
Bob M.


On the play I am describing the A lineman pass set, meaning they block on the LOS or give ground up to a yard behind the LOS and at no time are blocking in the ENZ. My question is: once they let the defenders through to the QB can they cross the neutral zone and enter the 2 yards of ENZ without penalty.

Bob I see your point about the last sentence of 7-5-12, however I think that can be misinterpreted quite easily with offensive lineman thinking they have the right to enter the ENZ no matter where the block took place.

[Robert Goodman]

Originally Posted by phansen

My question is: once they let the defenders through to the QB can they cross the neutral zone and enter the 2 yards of ENZ without penalty.

The fact that they had let defenders thru has no bearing on the legality. It's just, did they go beyond the regular NZ (other than while blocking an opponent into the ENZ), was the pass (after they did so) completed beyond the regular NZ, and was it not touched by B in or on A's side of the regular NZ?

Robert