Illegal Forward Pass?

[BktBallRef]

This question was posted on another forum where I'm the moderator. The forum is a HS football forum in a state where NFHS rules are used.

"Can a QB run past the LOS and then go back behind the LOS and legally throw a pass?"

My reply was "Yes, he certainly can."

A second poster questioned my reply. I explained that the play is not addressed as illegal in the NFHS rule book and is legal. His reply?

"That has to be the WORST interpretation of that rule I have ever seen/read.

To the original poster...

I wouldn't even consider for one minute to send your QB beyond the LOS then back up to throw a pass. I can guarantee that 99.9% of refs are going to throw the laundry out every time. Again, this is a HORRIBLE interpretation of this rule."

Would any of you be interested in helping this gentleman better udnerstand the rule? He just doesn't believe me.

[grantsrc]

I don't know if it is necessarily a horrible interpretation of the rule. Rather, there is no rule AGAINST it so therefore it would be legal. In NCAA rules, there is a specific rule that says it cannot be done. NFHS, there is no such stipulation so therefore it must be legal.

What is confusing about that?

[ljudge]

BBR: I believe this is in the case book but I'm not 100% sure. I tried to look it up online (don't have the case book with me) AND I can't get online because I forgot my id.

I would take the scenario a step further to tell the fan inquiring that if he think's THAT'S a bad interpretation then make the scenario all that more crazy....

A's ball 4th and 10 on A45. The punter runs past the LOS to the A48 then circles back behind, punts the ball which goes beyond the LOS when a strong wind blows it back, he then catches his own punt at the A40, then throws a forward from the A38 which is caught at B's 45 and advanced for a TD.

I have a legal TD!

[Bob M.]

Originally Posted by ljudge

...I have a legal TD!

REPLY: And two very perplexed coaches!!!


BBR...tell him that 'not liking a rule' and a 'bad interpretation' are two very different things!

[grantsrc]

Not in the online casebook. At least that I saw.

[Forksref]

Originally Posted by Bob M.

REPLY: And two very perplexed coaches!!!




BBR...tell him that 'not liking a rule' and a 'bad interpretation' are two very different things!

One of which is very happy.

[JugglingReferee]

Originally Posted by ljudge

A's ball 4th and 10 on A45. The punter runs past the LOS to the A48 then circles back behind, punts the ball which goes beyond the LOS when a strong wind blows it back, he then catches his own punt at the A40, then throws a forward from the A38 which is caught at B's 45 and advanced for a TD.

I have a legal TD!

This is a touchdown in Canada!

[Mark Dexter]

Maybe if you pasted in the rulebook section regarding "illegal forward passes," he might be able to read it.

Other than that, not much you can do. It's a "rules discussion" I've gotten into before - seems to me that it's a myth from somewhere, since no one believes the correct interpretation.

[waltjp]

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

I can guarantee that 99.9% of refs are going to throw the laundry out every time.

I'll take him up on this bet.

Is this other party an official (doubt it), a coach (maybe), or a fan (likely)?

[MJT]

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

This question was posted on another forum where I'm the moderator. The forum is a HS football forum in a state where NFHS rules are used.

"Can a QB run past the LOS and then go back behind the LOS and legally throw a pass?"

My reply was "Yes, he certainly can."

A second poster questioned my reply. I explained that the play is not addressed as illegal in the NFHS rule book and is legal. His reply?

"That has to be the WORST interpretation of that rule I have ever seen/read.

To the original poster...

I wouldn't even consider for one minute to send your QB beyond the LOS then back up to throw a pass. I can guarantee that 99.9% of refs are going to throw the laundry out every time. Again, this is a HORRIBLE interpretation of this rule."

Would any of you be interested in helping this gentleman better udnerstand the rule? He just doesn't believe me.

Show him the differences book between NF and NCAA. It shows both rules and provides two plays.

[The Roamin' Umpire]

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

Would any of you be interested in helping this gentleman better udnerstand the rule? He just doesn't believe me.

Link to the forum?

Or, you could try posting this:

NFHS 2-36 (Rule)
A rule is one of the groups of regulations which govern the game. A rule sometimes states what a player may do, but if there is no such statement for a given act (such as faking a kick), it is assumed that he may do what is not prohibited. [...]

NFHS 7-5 (Forward pass classification)
Art. 1 ... It is a legal forward pass, if during a scrimmage down and before team possession has changed, a player of A throws the ball with both feet of the passer in or behind the neutral zone when the ball is released. Only one forward pass may be thrown during the down.
Art. 2 ... An illegal forward pass is a foul. The illegal forward passes are:
a. A pass after team possession has changed during the down.
b. A pass from beyond the neutral zone.
c. A pass intentionally thrown into an area not occupied by an eligible offensive receiver.
d. A pass intentionally thrown incomplete to save loss of yardage or to conserve time. [spiking exception]
e. A second or subsequent forward pass thrown during a down.
[more articles follow, not relevant]

[w_sohl]

Originally Posted by The Roamin' Umpire

Link to the forum?

Or, you could try posting this:

NFHS 2-36 (Rule)
A rule is one of the groups of regulations which govern the game. A rule sometimes states what a player may do, but if there is no such statement for a given act (such as faking a kick), it is assumed that he may do what is not prohibited. [...]

NFHS 7-5 (Forward pass classification)
Art. 1 ... It is a legal forward pass, if during a scrimmage down and before team possession has changed, a player of A throws the ball with both feet of the passer in or behind the neutral zone when the ball is released. Only one forward pass may be thrown during the down.
Art. 2 ... An illegal forward pass is a foul. The illegal forward passes are:
a. A pass after team possession has changed during the down.
b. A pass from beyond the neutral zone.
c. A pass intentionally thrown into an area not occupied by an eligible offensive receiver.
d. A pass intentionally thrown incomplete to save loss of yardage or to conserve time. [spiking exception]
e. A second or subsequent forward pass thrown during a down.
[more articles follow, not relevant]

Seems to me this says it all, LFP

[Robert Goodman]

Originally Posted by The Roamin' Umpire

Art. 2 ... An illegal forward pass is a foul. The illegal forward passes are:
a. A pass after team possession has changed during the down.
b. A pass from beyond the neutral zone.
c. A pass intentionally thrown into an area not occupied by an eligible offensive receiver.
d. A pass intentionally thrown incomplete to save loss of yardage or to conserve time. [spiking exception]
e. A second or subsequent forward pass thrown during a down.
[more articles follow, not relevant]

And even e is only a couple years old. Well, actually much older than that, but it was "on the bench" for about 60 years in Fed.

What's interesting is that art. 1 references foot position of the passer rather than ball position at the origin of the pass: "...a player of A throws the ball with both feet of the passer in or behind the neutral zone when the ball is released." Considering how fast the ball may be moving at the point of release, and that the front foot is likely to be planted on the ground, foot position is probably an easier call. Even if it's a jump pass, it's probably an easier call.

Robert

[Forksref]

Originally Posted by waltjp

I'll take him up on this bet.

Is this other party an official (doubt it), a coach (maybe), or a fan (likely)?

I must be in the 1/10th of 1 per cent. No laundry here!

[Forksref]

My guess is that the QB will be under pressure if he is running across the LOS and back. It would be likely that he will be close to being hit when he throws it. It might be a case of close to a late hit because he has been a runner for most of the play and, therefore, protection of the QB would be an issue here.

As for the poster who questioned the interpretation, I'd say, "Show me the rule that prohibits this."