substitution vs participation
 

Who's right? Who's wrong?

I’m looking for opinions on this ‘situation’ I ran into Saturday. Maybe someone has come across this before or knows the rules.

My league uses WIAA rules which are basically NFHS rules. So, during a timeout my defensive coordinator substituted a cornerback for a cornerback. He said something like “you’re in” and “you’re out.” The kid that was in is new and not very sharp so he didn’t understand this and stayed on the field. Being new he also didn’t pick up on someone being in his position promptly. The timeout ends, the other team breaks the huddle, goes up to the line, we realize we have to many men, the official sees we have 12 men, decides to not stop play, the play is run (veer dive), the official throws a flag on the snap…

The official signals illegal participation and walks of the penalty 15 yards from the line of scrimmage.

Ok, now I notice this and say “that’s not a fifteen yard penalty.” The official says “it’s illegal participation that’s a fifteen yard penalty.” I now realize he’s calling the wrong penalty and say “that’s when someone comes off the bench after the snap. This is a dead ball, five yard substitution penalty!” He says “it wasn’t dead ball.” I’m now picking up on this guy being an idiot. “If you don’t blow dead a dead ball penalty it’s still a dead ball penalty.” As this is going on the other team is running a play and he has his back to them. A players dad on my sideline says “why don’t you watch the play that’s how someone gets hurt.” The official says “you (the dad) shut up I‘m not talking to you, you (me) I’ll stop the game to talk to you (me).” He starts walking toward my sideline. I say “that’s the wrong penalty, 15 yard penalties are for unsafe plays, personal fouls, unsportsmanlike, that’s the way the rules are structured.” He says “check your rule book before you open your mouth.” Now, I’m a very under control person which is good because the way he said this walking toward me and pointing is the way you pick a fight. I say “I’m fine, I don’t care, you have final say on making the wrong call, you’re the official, but I’m notifying you that your wrong so you never do it again.” That kept him from escalating it farther and he said something like “I’m right bla bla.” and the game continued.

Now, I checked my rulebook, the excepts are in the next post. Take a look if you need to and let me know what you think of my conduct the official and the ruling.

If anyone has a new good rulebook I’d be interested in that.

*3.7 COMMENT, Page 26: a. If a replaced player or substitute attempts to leave the field, but does not get off prior to the snap, the foul is considered as having occurred simultaneously with the snap and the illegal substitution penalty is enforced from the previous spot. (3-7-4, 10-4-2a)


*3.7.3 SITUATION A: B11 mistakenly believes he is his team's 12th player and leaves the field before the snap (a) on his opponent's sideline, or (b) on his sideline and enters his team box. B11 then discovers his error and returns to field on his team's side of the neutral zone before the snap. RULING: REPLACE WITH: Illegal in (a) which is a dead ball foul for illegal substitution (3-7-2). In (b) the action is legal, but if done intentionally to gain an advantage, it would be an unsportsmanlike foul. If B11 returns to the field after the snap it is a live ball foul for illegal participation in (a) and (b). (9-5-1f; 9-6-4a)

*9.6 COMMENT, Page 71: b: If a substitute enters the field during the down, but does not make any contact with an opponent or touch the ball and does not influence the play it is illegal participation and a live-ball foul enforced from the basic spot. (9-6-4a) NOTE: Based on the rules change, officials are strongly encouraged to make certain that the substitute’s entry into the field had some impact on the play and was not incidental to viewing the game or simply being in the bench area.



50. If a replaced player is unable to leave the field prior to the snap, it is an illegal substitution foul if he does not participate

nor affect the play

Illegal Participation

61. If a substitute or replace player influences the play it is illegal participation.

62. Illegal participation can be a non-player foul.

•Substitution and participation are more clearly defined

•Participation now has its own definition: “Any act or action by a player

or nonplayer that has influence on play.” (2-29)

•A replaced player or substitute who enters the field during a down,

but does not participate is guilty of illegal substitution. Penalty

enforced from the succeeding spot. (Fund 4)

•Illegal participation is a 15-yard spot foul.

Case Book: *3-7 COMMENT; *3.7.3 A & B; *9.6 COMMENT; *9.6.1D; *9.6.4C

Illegal substitution is a dead ball five yard foul and will be called if there are more than 11 defensive players on the field and the "extra players" (substitutes) are not making a bona fide attempt to get off the field.

Illegal Participation is a live ball 15 yard foul and occurs once the ball is snapped with more than 11 players on a side. The reason officials try to enforce the illegal substitution is because it is a 5 yard foul rather than the 15 yard foul.

Illegal substitution: The defense do not have "until the ball is snapped" to complete their substitution, a substitute must replace a player immediately. Immediately has been defined as "within 3 seconds". Hence the substitute must replace the player within 3 seconds of going to the defensive huddle or to the vicinity of the replaced player.

As a Wisconsin official, I'll tell you the the call was correct - illegal participation (Wisc. uses NFHS rules). According to your post, the replaced player stayed on the field during the play. So, you had 12 on the field during the play - that is illegal participation, a 15 yard live-ball foul.

As to your behavior, I can only judge by your post because I wasn't there. You stated that since he got the call wrong, he was an idiot. However, you were the one who got the call wrong.

So who is the idiot. :)

The rule in question is 9-6-3. No replaced player.....shall hinder an opponent, touch the ball, influence the play or otherwise participate. Illegal participation.

Since your player stayed on the field, he both influenced the play and participated. Before you question the influencing part, he influenced because he was on the field during the play and therefor the offense had to account for him in their blocking decisions.

It's my opion that if illegal participation is called then the crew screwed up. We should be counting during each and every dead ball and calling illegal substitution when we count 12. That being said sometimes it happens. Sometimes at the youth level the rugrats are tough to count. They are rarely still or in the correct place, still it's part of our job to count them correctly. The official in question should never turn his back to discuss anything with a coach while play is continuing. As a coach, you should have requested a time out to discuss the ruling in a calm manner with the crew chief. If your point was upheld you would not be charged for the timeout. Just as this official was not paying attention to the game when his back was turned to you, you were not paying attention to your team while they were running a play. When you are yelling across the field at an official you are doing your team a disservice.

Technically regarding the call, you were wrong and the official was right but it definitely could have been handled better by all parties involved.

Sorry coach, you were wrong on a number of levels and are responsible for creating an unnecessary level of tension that could have (maybe even should have) caused your disqualification.

First, your understanding of the rules you are referencing is totally incorrect. Yes, illegal substitution is a 5 yard dead ball foul, and Illegal participation is a live ball 15 yard foul. Forgive me, but because you and your defensive coordinator are not on the same page is not the officials problem.

Officials should, and usually do, count both teams before the snap specifically to avoid situations like this one. As suggested, however, for various reasons the counts are not sometimes completed in time and the play goes off. Again, the correct number of players on the field is not the officials responsibility, it's yours. When 12, or more, players participate in the play, the correct call is illegal participation, a live ball 15 yard penalty.

Forgive me again, as I presume your version of the story might be a little sugar coated, but that's reality based on a lot of "conversations" with coaches regarding their misunderstanding of rules. Something tells me, when you decided the official enforced the "wrong penalty" your tone was less of questioning and perhaps a little accusitory, which is an absolutely losing strategy to employ. It might be your skill at, "now picking up on this guy being an idiot", but it likely affected your attitude, in the wrong direction and helped this discussion go down hill. Mistake number 2.

Your concern for the game progressing while the Referee was talking to you, was mistake number 3. Your commenting on that was a disrespectful suggestion that he was not fulfilling his primary responsibility of managing the game, was simply, unnecessary and added nothing positive to your discussion. Quoting rules, or what you think are the rules, suggesting ignorance on the part of the Referee is a dangerous tactic if you're seeking cooperation.

You'll get a lot better reaction if you keep things in the form of a question and wait for clarification, rather than just accusing him of being uninformed.

As for the parent, hopefully he paid to get in and therefore earned the privlege of saying (pretty much) whatever he wants, but he should not expect that anything he says matters or deserves any kind of response. He is entitled to his opinion, but that opinion is simply not relevant.

Your attempt to get in the last word, with, "I don’t care, you have final say on making the wrong call, you’re the official, but I’m notifying you that your wrong so you never do it again", was clearly mistake number 4 and 5.

Mistake number 4, because you were dead wrong about the rule itself, and mistake number 5 because your comment could have caused you to spend the rest of the game in the parking lot. The "last word" is always up for grabs, but it can often be very expensive.

Allow me to suggest you familiarize yourself with another NF rule, NF:3.5.11 it describes the civil manner in which a coach may question any rule application in a calm, relaxed manner. Even fully understanding that rule, I would suggest a tone of questioning, rather than declaring, will produce much more favorable results.

Coaching is an often difficult, frustrating experience and it requires your full focus. Officiating is also a job that requires specialized training, dedication and committment. Rarely do we find individuals who are capable of being competent in both roles, because the roles pull in opposite directions.

Well said ajmc. I hope the OP coach learns something here. (Coach: feel free to reply to me without my fearing you do so for the last word. :))

If we count 12, then if they are not making any attempt to have one leave, we will throw the flag just prior to the snap. I tell the coach, we just saved you 10 yards. (5 yd IS vs. 15 yd IP). I consider it doing a favor for the team.

If we fail to do that for whatever reason, it will be a 15 yarder.

In any case, it is really the fault of the coach for not being organized enough to have the right number of kids out there. This seems to happen repeatly with some teams and not at all with others.

And under the principle that you will always make someone unhappy, we had a coach complain last year when we only penalized his the opponent for 5 yards. He argued that we should have let the play go and penalize them for 15, and by not doing so we cheated his team out of 10 yards.

I agree – the rule was applied correctly under the circumstances. As for the behavior of the referee, the dad and the coach – it was absolutely deplorable by all. We are the adults and should set the example for the kids. What message did you send to your players?

Whether the call is correct or just wrong – there is a decorum that should be followed and a certain amount of respect that should be shown by all parties. The kids will learn a lot about conflict resolution from you coach. Are you proud of what you are teaching?

I’m not excusing the official from this either – shame on both of you! As for the dad - put him in the stands where he belongs.

How could the rule possibly be applied correctly under the circumstances? The official knowingly disregarded a dead ball foul in order to call a live ball foul. That is either malicious or ignorant, both being incorrect.

In your description, the defensive team had 12 players participating during the down. Nowhere in your play is the replaced player trying to leave the field.

Techincally speaking, that's how.

I would also like to see some of these rules if they are different then the ones I posted. While understandably confusing due to both containing “when 12 or men are on the field” the deciding factor seems to be when the player enters the field, and the player substituted’s reaction. Nothing seems to indicate that if the official messes up by not doing his job or pretending he didn’t he has the right to takes it out on the players by calling a penalty that is impossible to apply if the lesser occurred.

I'm curious as to how you know when the official realized there were 12 on the field. You are assuming that he knew before the snap based on what evidence??? Maybe he realized it as the play was happening and he saw two corners standing out there side-by-side and thought "That doesn't look right."

What exactly makes you think he knew, didn't kill it, and chose to let it go live vs. he didn't know until it was live???

My crew philosophy is to try to shut it down if there is clearly a substitution infraction or 12 people on the field. If that cannot happen the rules are in place to have a live ball substitution foul. I do not feel this is only the officials fault because many teams bring a lot of people on and off the field, especially on the defensive side of the ball; it can be hard to determine who is on the field and who should be off the field.

Peace

Spoken like a true coach who could not make a simple substitution. Blame it on the official. As much as we try to catch these infractions before the snap, sometimes we don't. Sometimes our count is late for several factors such as, moving the chains, explaining something to a coach, etc. This should have been handled better by both of you, but let's not forget the initial cause...your failure to make a proper substitution. ;)

Was this 4 man or 5 man? Maybe you should have informed the official before the play started that you had 12 guys on the field so they could have stopped the play to give you a 5 yarder.

Agree with Rut, our philosophy is to try and shut it down and give the 5 instead of the 15. Its not always possible, you get hung up in mid-count, have to recount, snap gets off, then its too bad, so sad- 15 if he doesn't get off the field, 5 LBF if he does eventually find his sideline.

Rule 9.6.4c - It is illegal participation...To have 12 or more players participating at the snap or free kick.

I don't understand your continued refusal to accept what everyone says here but it doesn't surprise me at all. The bottom line is, if the official recognized the problem before the snap and flags it, you get a dead ball illegal sub foul. If he doesn't, you get a live ball illegal part foul and no amount of sideline lawyering is going to change it to a dead ball foul. Time to live with it and move on.

editted to add....why is it always us bad officials are "taking it out on the players" when we are simply enforcing the penalties required due to player/coach actions?

Well you can have a live ball substitution foul and the NF does address this specifically. Once the ball is live, you have to determine when what that player did during the play. There action will determine the foul. If you can catch it before the play comes off, that is the best thing to do. Also if players do not leave immediately after being subbed for, then that can cause the play to shut down.

Peace

I'm trying to stick to the OP rather than the myriad of possible other situations this particular instance could bring up.

1)The hand on the flag well before the snap and waiting to throw it immediately as the ball was snapped was a tip off.
2)People yelling “get off the field” to the player substituted close to but well before the snap probably gave him a chance to figure out what was going on.
3)The substitution happened during a timeout and the opposing team was slow to return to the field which was a lot of time to do the required count.
4)When I stated correctly rules that contradicted his call, instead of trying to clarify the discrepancy he tried to pick a fight with me, which generally weakens any defense of him.

I get that, but it must be made clear that the rules allow for a live ball substitution infraction. There are people that will read this on only think there is one option or the other.

Peace

I think you're a howler monkey.

Or the astute coach could have indicated he wanted a time out.

First, in 4 years teams I’ve coached have had maybe one other substitution penalty. Second, I love how some people have a built in prejudice here. I’m not looking for blind hate but rather logical thought. Third, It might help you to know that both my defensive coordinator and myself are officials when we aren’t coaching. It also may help some of you to know this is the first real disagreement I’ve ever had with officials while coaching a game. Let’s keep your silly emotional venting that has nothing to do with me or this conversation out of it.

So if you're an official as well, why did you treat the fraternity with disrespect?

I didn't want a time out and I didn't mind the penalty. The missaplication or ignoring of rules generaly diminishes "fun" and "fair play." Those things I teach my team.

Is that what you were doing when you initially refered to him as an "idiot"? You were the one that was incorrect on the rule, not him. :D

When? maybe if you picture me screaming and throwing things I was disrespectful. However, I was not doing so. I can ask for clarification or an explanation. I can state rules. I was given no explanation and told to check a rule book before opening my mouth (screaming and pointing). I also have the advantage of having parents and coaches that have witnessed every game I’ve coached. They were appalled by this big bad ref attacking this honest coach with a legitimate concern. I typically address any official as sir or sirs and give any benefit of the doubt to them. My team never whines or complains about any call, they tell captains and/or coaches about them. This in my experience are rare traits.

1. You have to be kidding me. I know I have put my hand on my flag when I was going for me bean bag. There have been other times I reached for my flag but decided to pass on the foul (and, yes, I should be more careful about reaching for my flag until I'm certain there was a foul). More importantly though, why were you watching the official "well before the snap" and didn't take your eyes off him until after the snap? I'm not a coach, but I always thought you watched the play on the field (or, before the snap, wanted to make sure that you were in the correct formation, whatever) rather than spending the entire time watching the officials.

2. We don't officiate based on what the bench says (otherwise we would have 30+ holding calls a game and someone else would be compaining about 'over officiating'). How did the official know you were yelling at the 12th man? Besides weren't you spending all your time watching the official? Maybe the yell occured during the count or caused the official to recount, which he did not finish until the snap?

3. Perhaps the official was making sure the other team was going to get out to the field on time. Also, if your team had 12 in a conference inside the inbounds lines, then this would be a 15 yard dead ball penalty on your team.

4. Well, if he tried to pick a fight, then shame on him. This does not make his call wrong...it just makes his on-field behavior reprehensible. Also, considering you are on here trying to pick a fight, I think that takes any 'defense' away from you. If he made what you feel was an error (and, yeah, officials make them), bring it up on here and we will tell you how it should be--even if it means saying the officials was incorrect. However, when you are so quick to start name calling, we aren't going to be shy about expressing our opinion on the call. He was not necessarily wrong, and you are definitely not right. Now, give it up. The call went against you. Spend less time watching the officials and channel your enthusiam toward coaching your team--it sounds like they could use it.

It is not always what you say, but how you say it. I was not there, but many times coaches claim they are asking a "legitimate question" they are doing it in a way that is not appropriate. And if you cannot handle that, than you need to stop coaching. Also if you knew much about officiating, you would realize that it is not our job or obligation to answer your questions. If we do answer a question, that is done to be courteous. It is not our obligations when we have other game responsibilities. I was not there and I am sure you think you did nothing wrong, but I bet if we asked the officials or other individuals on the crew they might have a different take.

Peace

Maybe I'm old fashioned, but I would consider calling someone an 'idiot' disrespectful. :confused:

Plus, it seems to me, that your first post was pretty much a whine. Just how I read it. We have all made mistakes on the field, missed calls, etc., but I think our reaction was pretty justified considering how this all started, and your refusal to accept the truth.

That was a thought and observation. I didn’t call him an idiot. It also is a recap of what happened. A thought popping into my head during an exchange in which he was acting idiotic. I would like to see some evidence of me being incorrect on the rule outside of “12 men on the field” because that obviously is the justification of misapplying participation. Perhaps look at the other 3 sentences each in both rules rather than ignore them.

Unless Bill Clinton is proofreading for you, I would say that you called him an idiot.

Why do you have to make this about me? maybe looking at the rules would do some good. I'm curious about this situation and considering half are giving one answer and half the opposite (I’m posting on multiple boards) I would say a great deal of confusion exists. Maybe a wise and intelligent official would be able to explain himself using evidence like citations, published situation clarification, or logic. “I do this” is data I look at but don’t lend much weight to. For all I know you have no idea what you are talking about. Stop disrespecting a member of the fraternity

I like you creativeness and Clinton refference but notice my use of quotes? That's what was said. The naration is naration.

Rule 9.6.4c - It is illegal participation...To have 12 or more players participating at the snap or free kick.

PENALTY: Illegal participation (Art. 4b-f [live-ball, previous spot]) - (S28) - 15 yards. Like we've all said, "we try to catch this prior to the snap, but if we don't, this is the rule.

I agree with your post. My only comment would be Officials have some obligation to communicate with coaches. It goes to the birth of football (when there were no “officials”) First captains then coaches then “officials” refereed the game. Everyone is in it together. Having been all three the attitudes I’m seeing here are scary and contrary to the spirit of the game.

I count players before each play. If I have something different than 11 I count again. If I verify that there's more than 11 on the field then I'll flag it as an illegal sub and kill the play. If the ball is snapped while I'm still counting then the only choice is illegal participation.

I do see quotes in the OP, but not around the 'idiot' tid bid. Nor do I think its very nice to mock JugglingReferee--an honest member of this fraternity (and, unlike me, he is smart enought not to get down into this silly "contest").

The only time we are obligated to talk to you is the Referee and wing official on your side when you call a timeout and request a conference. Other than that it is not our job (you will not find it in the rulebook BTW) where does it says we have to talk to you? And if other things are going on, they may not have time to talk to you. Answering questions from you takes away from other responsibilities.

I do not even know what your point is here. If I recall this was not a high school game, this was a youth or recreational type of game. I do not understand all this hostility over a call where everyone is supposed to learn.

Peace

I think we covered that. Prudent questions would be if a clear cut illegal substitution occurs and is noticed by officials do they have any justification in ignoring it, then proceeding to call a similar foul with a higher penalty? If so, is this ethical?

The answer to the second question is without a doubt NO. Since it’s not ethical I tend to think the answer to the first question is no as well.

I agree. Obligation by rule is what your talking about. That courtesy you were talking about is done for a reason. That’s what I was talking about.

Seems to me that a lot of wrestilng with a pig in mud is going on here. I would think that after all of these posts, the question was answered. Hard to tell someone that they are wrong with out a window to see out of.

You asked for the rule and we've given it. Since you don't like that answer, you now want us to fall into your conspiracy theory that the official knew he had you for a IS, but blatently waited until after the snap so he could really put it to you...and your players. Sorry coach, I don't buy it.

The problem I (and I'm guessing others have on here) is that we are not convinced the official knew about and ignored the IS. Now if he truly passed over the IS for IP, then it was incorrect. I would have a hard time saying it is unethical, because this implies that he was intentionally trying to hurt your team, which does not sound like the case.

No mocking or hostility is coming from me. If I am miss-interrupting or misrepresenting anyone’s emotions in my responses tell me I’ll take your word on it.

Coach, unless you are some sort of mind reader, you really have no idea what the official was thinking prior to the play. You may suspect, even strongly suspect, but there is no way for you to know. You may be right, it should have been flagged as a substitution, but it wasn't so it becomes a participation. But my question is, if all this time went by between the time out, the offense finally returning, sidelines yelling at players and officials, why the heck couldn't you manage to get one player, any player, off to avoid any penalty? The whole story is beginning to sound just like that, a story.
Respectfully, it is quite obvious you came here expecting some sort of validation for your point of view and it should also be obvious you just are not going to get it. So I guess I'm wondering why you continue the debate.

Yes because I've tried to make myself look like a saint and the officail the devil. It isn't a question of buying it. It is a question of what happened. I take from your answer that you agree with my answer's to the 2 questions. No and No.

Without making any insults, what are you talking about? Making points in a debate doesn’t mean you are looking for validation no matter how much you want that to be the case. Trying to bully someone isn’t an argument. If it were clear cut I wouldn’t question it. I’m looking for someone on the other side of this to make a good argument. So, in a way I want to be wrong but no one has made an argument. The lack of logic here is ridiculous.

I have no problem with people taking the other side of this. If a logical argument exists I want to hear it. Obviously, the two rules are similar. They both have the sentence “when 12 or more players are on the field” in them.

From the officials and coaches I’ve talked to, common practice is to differentiate based on if it’s called before or after the snap. That is practical but incorrect considering the rules differentiate based on the extra player entering the field before or after the snap.


The players actions determine what penalty it is not the officials. This attitude is backward, lazy, and selfish.

I must be misunderstanding your point of view. You are 20 posts in on this site and I am really not clear what you are trying to accomplish. Do you want people to agree with you? Do you want to validate that the official was wrong? Do you want the actual rule and the common interpretations? All you seem to do is argue with people that disagree with your position. If you have not noticed, that goes on a lot here. There is nothing wrong with your position if that is what you believe. You cannot expect everyone else to take that position with you because you want them to. It does not work that way in the real world, it does not work here either.

Peace

Sorry coach I have to call bull**** on this one.

That's BS. That's why there are 2 officials counting A/B so if there are 12 on the field before the snap, you kill it and it's a 5 yd Ill Sub foul.

Screaming at a coach shows lack of training and, I dare say, maturity.

Can we address the issue at hand? stop sidetracking on the meaning of life or whatever your talking about. Your right I shouldn’t respond to a lot of the people here but I did I hoped they would eventually share knowledge or logical analysis. I don’t know who is smart and who isn’t. I can sift through a lot of information so why are you concerned about the number of posts? make a good point about the rules / situation please.

Jrutledge said
“…it must be made clear that the rules allow for a live ball substitution infraction. There are people that will read this and only think there is one option or the other.”

If that is true, which I think/know it is, that completely undermines the only argument I’ve heard disagreeing with me. The “if I catch it it’s 5 yard mistake if I don’t it’s akin to a personal foul unsportsmanlike penalty” argument is baseless. The intent of both rules would never make this situation happen. No rule making body would structure it this way. What makes it happen is officials using a rule of thumb that is false because they don’t know the rules or messed up and need to figure out what to do somehow.

I've read this far into the thread and nobody has yet quoted (and I can't, no recent rule book) the Fed rule for illegal substitution (dead ball). That was the only point of contention, not whether it became a case of illegal participation once the ball was put in play (which everyone agrees).

Some officials are saying they try to flag illegal substitution based on their count of players, plus lack of indication that any of them are trying to leave the field. What language in the rule book supports that? I remember there being some discussion here about illegal substitution as an automatic call in Fed based on certain procedures' failing to be followed, but the discussion seemed to be only about cases where it's team A.

Robert

Your question has been answered. Just because you do not like the answer, does not mean that everyone else is wrong and you are right. At this point is seems like should take the information given into to you and either accept it or reject the information all together. It really does not matter to me, but stop trying to take on everyone because you do not agree with them. That is only going to show you for what people think you are. And if that is not what you want people to think, then I suggest you quit while you are ahead. But just because you think you know more than everyone here, does not make it so.

Peace

You are obviously having a hard time understanding the rule as it is written and applied. You are reading it and trying to apply it to your own logic. You are correct that there can be a live ball IS. When the extra player is trying to get off the field but can't before the snap, you have a live ball IS. In the instance you describe you had 2 players in the CB position. Your problem is the issue of what participation is. I believe that you think that since he didn't do anything on that play that he didn't participate. Now if you were astute enough to read the definition of participation you would have read that is any act or action that has an influence on the play. Now since coaches speak and understand a different language than the rule book, I'm going to venture a guess that in your opinion he had no influence on the play. Still with me? Ok, now you have to go to the Case Book. The Case Book explains exactly what the rules mean by giving examples. Lo and behold your exact situation is in there! 3.7.1 Situation B: ".....However, if the official's count is not completed before the snap is imminent or if the substitution has not been monitored, it becomes illegal participation at the snap if more that 11 are in the formation. Each team is responsible for substituting legally and for replaced players to leave immediately as required."

This is purely a penalty related to poor discipline which is a result of poor coaching. As the coach it is your responsibility to substitute correctly. Whether it's 5 or 15 it's all on you. If you were smart you would have at least taken the time out. You thought you would get away with 5 and didn't call time out. When it didn't happen that way, you became upset. End of story. Go back to practice and work on your substitutions and stop trying to look here for validation that this was not simply a case of poor coaching.

For your information, it has only been recently that the NF has made this distinction of when you could or would not have a live ball or dead ball foul. And if a player is going off the field and they do not participate, that can be a live ball foul. Usually it does not get that far, because a foul has been committed long before that. The side that is the hardest to evaluate that kind of distinction is the defense. The defense does not huddle as often and they often react to the offensive changes. It is a violation of the substitution rule to not make that substitution immediately, so you will not have many situations where the ball becomes live.

Peace

Coach...there are some crews who have the philisophy that a defender can leave the field of play before the play begins, therefore will not blow it dead w/more than 11.
Offense cannot break w/<11, or line up <11 bc. it would put defense at a great disadvantage.
next time, as other posts have mentioned, count to ten, and if that doesn't work, count to twenty or thirty, whatever it takes before you explode at an official, it will be well worth it!
cheers,
tro

I know those interpretations and that practice the only thing your offering is the case book. What book is it what page is that on?

The offense cannot break the huddle with 12 is a myth. A is in their huddle, A12 enters the huddle and they immediately break the huddle as A11 leaves the field. How is that a penalty?

I told you the book (Case Book) and the rule. Rule 3.7.1 Situation B. It's on page 27. The case book explains the rule with real life situations. Yours is right there in black and white. I believe this is the part where you either say Mea Culpa or are never heard from again.

*3.7 COMMENT, Page 26: a. If a replaced player or substitute attempts to leave the field, but does not get off prior to the snap, the foul is considered as having occurred simultaneously with the snap and the illegal substitution penalty is enforced from the previous spot. (3-7-4, 10-4-2a)

This is exactly what happened. Stop pretending you were there and he wasn't trying to get off. Stop pretending the official didn't have the count. Stop trying to make an argument for a conclusion you are predisposed to have “Ref good coach bad” make an honest case. We are looking for better understanding here

This is not true. It is only illegal if a substitution is not done immediately (along with other specific acts). The huddle does not play a role at all. You do not have to take my word for it, read Rule 3-7.

Peace

I wasn't there and did not see the play all I have is what you described. You wrote the following: The kid that was in is new and not very sharp so he didn’t understand this and stayed on the field. Being new he also didn’t pick up on someone being in his position promptly. No where in your story did you say he was running off the field and didn't make it off before the snap. So are you now changing the story?

The participation penalty assumes that the officials are competent and able to count players on the field in under a minute. It takes less than a second to determine any offense (with 5 interior lineman) has 11. That leaves a lot of time for the defense. Under no circumstances should this situation occur. Participation can only be called if the 12th defensive player runs on within 3 seconds of the snap to after the snap. Otherwise it’s on the official to call a substitution penalty. I’m sorry if you feel guilty about this but it’s just the way it is. Take the ignorant blinders off.


*9.6 COMMENT, Page 71: b: If a substitute enters the field during the down, but does not make any contact with an opponent or touch the ball and does not influence the play it is illegal participation and a live-ball foul enforced from the basic spot. (9-6-4a) NOTE: Based on the rules change, officials are strongly encouraged to make certain that the substitute’s entry into the field had some impact on the play and was not incidental to viewing the game or simply being in the bench area.

Again you have to apply the correct rule. Your player did not enter the field during a down. Next.

I said coaches were yelling to him to get off, and he did attempt to get off that wasn’t extremely clear I understand that. What I was getting at in that quote is he was standing on the field a long time as the time out ended, as the defense huddled, as the offense returned, as they broke the huddle, as the cadence started he was attempting to get off but he had no chance of making it from the far sideline to ours. The substitution penalty should be called if the player he is replacing doesn’t leave within 3 seconds. I understand that might not be easy to monitor but 2 mins is a lot more than 3 seconds.

I know it's not participation it’s an automatic substitution penalty. Your arguing for me now?

Reference please??

Peace

So, the new question would be if the official messes up by not counting timely why wouldn't the same penalty apply and why wouldn't he blow the whistle once he finishes counting?

What 3 seconds? There is nothing in the book about 3 seconds, furthermore you are not even reading from the 2008 book! You are now arguing in circles. At first when I read your story I thought the official in question was an arrogant SOB. I've now decided that he is in fact a saint for not ejecting you. I new someone once who was mentally ill. We could have a disagreement and since the other persons point had no validity they would keep changing. Soon I would realize that we weren't even discussing the original topic and were in fact arguing about arguing. That is exactly the case here as well. I am finished with you and I would strongly suggest you seek professional help.

Case Book: *3-7 COMMENT; *3.7.3 A & B; *9.6 COMMENT; *9.6.1D; *9.6.4C
Illegal substitution is a dead ball five yard foul and will be called if there are more than 11 defensive players on the field and the "extra players" (substitutes) are not making a bona fide attempt to get off the field…

…The defense do not have "until the ball is snapped" to complete their substitution, a substitute must replace a player immediately. Immediately has been defined as "within 3 seconds". Hence the substitute must replace the player within 3 seconds of going to the defensive huddle or to the vicinity of the replaced player.

It looks like it is in the book. If it isn't what is the new definition?

You obviously misunderstood the question. Where does it say that "3 seconds" defines the term immediately? There is no such reference and that was my point. I did not say that the defense could wait until the snap. When the defense does not huddle you give them a little different expectation when they might be subbing people all over the field. But I admit that is a person philosophy, which is not necessarily supported by rule. ;)

Peace

that is where it says it. that is what it says. I'm not sure what your looking for from me. You think that it doesn't say that?

You obviously did not read your own rules references. There is no mention of 3 seconds in the NF rules. Now you said you were using NF Rules (or WIAA Rules, whatever that means).

BTW, there is no such thing as a 3-7 Comment. You probably do not even know why. But you are an official right?

I am starting to wonder if you are just a troll. :rolleyes:

Peace

I’m looking right at it. You are looking right at it. If it can’t possibly exist I would like to know why and I will discard this book.

Can you reference the exact language where it says "3 seconds" constitutes "immediately?" Keep looking, because you will not find it.

BTW, there is no 3-7 Comment. There is a 3.7 Comment. ;)

Peace

OK, the following quotation is the reference where the exact language says "3 seconds" constitutes "immediately.”
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Case Book: *3-7 COMMENT; *3.7.3 A & B; *9.6 COMMENT; *9.6.1D; *9.6.4C
Illegal substitution is a dead ball five yard foul and will be called if there are more than 11 defensive players on the field and the "extra players" (substitutes) are not making a bona fide attempt to get off the field.

Illegal Participation is a live ball 15 yard foul and occurs once the ball is snapped with more than 11 players on a side. The reason officials try to enforce the illegal substitution is because it is a 5 yard foul rather than the 15 yard foul.

The defense do not have "until the ball is snapped" to complete their substitution, a substitute must replace a player immediately. Immediately has been defined as "within 3 seconds". Hence the substitute must replace the player within 3 seconds of going to the defensive huddle or to the vicinity of the replaced player
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

BTW it says Case Book: *3-7 COMMENT; [U]*3.7.3[/U] A & B; *9.6 COMMENT; *9.6.1D; *9.6.4C

I got the 85th post in this thread. Ocho Cinco is my jersey number! :eek:

I am looking at the casebook and your references (The 2008 National Federation Football Casebook). There is not one comment about "3 seconds" in this book under those references.

And under reference 3.7.1 Situation B, Comment says:

"In a related situation, if the covering official's count of the players has determined there are more than 11 prior to the snap, a dead-ball illegal substitution foul should be charged since a replaced player(s) did not leave immediately. However, if the official's count is not completed before the snap is imminent or if the subsitutiion has not been monitored, it becomes illegal participation at the snap if more than 11 are in the formation. Each team is responsible for substituting legally and for replaced players to leave immediately as required (3-7-4; 9-6-4c)

This is not my commenting on the rule, I just quoted it. That sounds a lot like your situation. There is absolutely no reference to “3 seconds” constituting the term “immediately” in making a substitution.

I do not know what rulebook you are actually looking at, but I quoted the actual casebook.

Peace

Only counts if you change your name in Florida.

Thank you for that. I didn't see that in the 08 book. My quotation is from a few years ago I have it on the computer. Does 3 seconds still define immediately? they defined it and never undefined it right?

Is undefining something akin to 'reestablishing' yourself in bounds in basketball (and since some people have some basic rules issues today, there is no such thing in football).

I'm sure they are lots of phrases, rules, etc. in old rulebooks that have not been 'undefined' yet they are definitely not still in existence.

Good Grief.

http://bp1.blogger.com/_UMxR_4lDZJk/...rlie-brown.jpg

This really is kind of simple. It all boils down to when the official discovered 12. before the snap, kill and get the 5 yarder. after the snap, 15 for IP.

BTW - the OP said nothing about the player trying to leave the field. Coach - If you don't want to take the chance of getting a 15 yarder, call timeout. If you don't, you are leaving it up to us as to when we discover 12 guys on the field. As has been pointed out, sometimes we just don't get it quick enough but it's not our fault. You had too many guys on the field. We just call it.

hawkishowl20,

Nobody welcome'd you to our forum.

So, welcome. Please do stay around here and contribute.

Offense cannot break w/<11

Don't throw that in. That is NOT an NF rule.

In math terms:

< means 'less than'

I see no rule stating that the offense cannot break a huddle with less than 11 players.

I wonder if maybe the officials were using some NCAA conferences' philosophy of not calling a foul on the defense until after the snap beause the defense can call a timeout to correct the foul. If so, the officials were incorrect to do so. From the description (and we only got one side of the story here), it sounds like nobody involved handled this very well.

:eek:

I was the first to respond to this question and it was a pretty simple answer, can't believe it's led to such a discussion. Maybe this will be the last, who knows.

Coach - the refs got it right whether you like it or not. Live with it. (blow the ready for play and let's get on with the game)

So I don't work the oblongated ball, but I do follow a bunch of your discussions from where I belong on the forum... mind if I ask a question that's bothering me in this discussion?

So, B1 illegally enters the field. That broke a rule. The official notices this either a) just as the ball is snapped or b) just before the ball is snapped or c) well before the ball is snapped. In this discussion c is a 5 yard dead ball foul. a or b are 15 yard live ball fouls.

Now what bothers me is that I can't think of an analagous situation in any sport where the time the official notes the infraction determines it's severity without the player doing anything else.

There are a couple of close ones that are about preventative officiating but they all seem to involve when we notice relative to what the illegal player did.

Why isn't this (and the casebook seems clear to me that you are all right that it isn't) a case where when after the snap you get to 12 you blow it dead because you realize a foul occurred before the snap. (If you're not sure where it occurred that's another thing... I mean the case where you're sure there were no late substitutions and are sure they committed a dead ball foul.)

It's bothersome that the officials error makes the penalty much worse.
________
Club Royal Condos Wong Amat

Not a football official - just a coach, but I fail to see how this is the official's error. If I can't get my personnel on and off the field when I need to, that's on me and my coaching staff and we need to do a better job.

As far as the difference in the penalties (again, this is not a rules interp, just a point of view from the sideline), having 12 players participate in the play can be extremely dangerous. You've got an extra body out there who won't be blocked and can get a nasty shot at the player with the ball because of that. It should be a harsher penalty.

Youngump asks a great question and the answer is simple you can stop play after it starts and call the dead ball foul. It is not only suggested in the substitution rule it also is the safest thing to do. That’s why participation carries a higher penalty: if you run on after play begins it may be difficult to catch and is dangerous. That’s why substitution is a 5 yard penalty because it occurs outside of play and causes no danger.


*3.7 COMMENT, Page 26: a. If a replaced player or substitute attempts to leave the field, but does not get off prior to the snap, the foul is considered as having occurred simultaneously with the snap and the illegal substitution penalty is enforced from the previous spot. (3-7-4, 10-4-2a)

He clearly doesn't. Even if he did what he was supposed to do after messing up… he still messed up. The “if” is still in question. The only thing that has been established is his mistakes and the unethical nature and consequence of his mistakes.