A good example would be basketball where before I hand the ball for a throw-in I notice that there is one too many players. I tell the extra player to get off and don't start the play. If I miscount, then the play continues and we could have a technical for too many players participating. Because I noticed the sixth player later means a foul for the team as opposed to none.

Let's not forget that YOUR mistakes have also been established. YOU didn't get your personnel on and off the field like you should have and YOU were an a$$ to the official just as much as he was an a$$ to you. Whether you like it or not, the flag was thrown for illegal participation and that's 15 yards. Rather than whining about the official, get your act together on the sideline and make sure you never allow the official the chance to make that decision again.

I thought about that but it's not quite analagous. The reason being that no rule has been broken. Your count is preventative officiating. If I let an illegal bat get into the batters box, I haven't done a good job preventing a problem, but the rule violation occurred at the time the bat came in.
But in this case the rule was already broken. Replaced players must immediately leave the field. If they don't, five yards for illegal substitution. To be analagous it would have to be a delay warning or something if you noticed early and I think that would be a very bad rule.
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Youngump, allow me to try and answer your question, as you seem honestly interested in an answer. The situation presenting two different penalties is not related to "an officials error" it's related to how, and when, the infraction is discovered.

You might consider that a football game involves more than 22 people often milling about before a play begins. The mechanics designed to deal with this recommends the Referee and Umpire both count the offense team, and confirm their count to each other before each play begins. The wing officials (4 man mechanics) count and confirm the defense.

At the HS level recent rule revision require that all substitutions be completed in a prompt manner which require the replaced player to "immediately" remove himself from the field. Immediately is intentionally left as a flexible term determined by the good judgment and common sense of the field officials. There is no set time for the dead ball period between downs and that interval may differ greatly within a game between teams and situations.

Substitutions occur at any time during the dead ball interval so the time available to count, or recount players varies between plays.

When an official observes more than 11 players in a formation, which would include a replaced player delaying leaving a formation, during the dead ball period that constitutes an illegal substitution (NF: 3.7). That foul would also cover a replaced player leaving a formation who does not manage to exit the field before the play begins, or exits the field improperly.

Illegal participation (NF: 9.6) involves more than 11 people participating in the play.

In general officials try and determine if there is a substitution infraction before EVERY down begins, but because of the conjestion, player movement and time available an exact count is either not completed or completed accurately. The clear objective is to catch any illegal substitution infractions before they develop into illegal participation situations, but that is not always possible.

When the effort fails to uncover the additional personnel on the field, and the player participates in the ensuing play, the proscribed penalty is Illegal Participation, a more severe penalty. The absolute and primary responsibility for having the proper number of players on the field rests entirely on each team.

If possible an official can prevent a team from committing an Illegal participation foul by detecting an illegal substitution situation before the play becomes alive, but if that is not detected, in time, the illegal participation foul prevails.

In your description of your play, the player makes no attempt to leave the field = 3.7 Comment a. does not apply.

What I find amazing is that a certain coach has been shown the rule, over and over. He has seen the case play yet still can not get over himself. IF he were as he said an official and part of the fraternity wouldn't he understand this stuff easier? Or maybe, being a part of the fraternity, he expects to be able to get away with stuff? Rules are rules. This one is pretty plainly stated. If he talked to the official on the sideline as densly as he speaks here, seriously how long would he stay?

Thank you Coach! I can’t believe we are still talking about the rule – it’s the behavior by the coach and referee that is concerning.

Since when can we stop play after it starts? Please do not quote from outdated books. Get yourself a 2008 rulebook and casebook and start reading for comprehension.

Wouldn't we go into the fundamentals. No live-ball foul causes the ball to become dead.

Yep...I coach football and ref basketball. I expect the football refs to treat me the way I treat basketball coaches, and I treat them the way I want to be treated when I'm wearing the stripes.

Again, not my game, but it happens all of the time whether the rule book supports it or not. Whistle, mic comes on, dead ball, delay of game. Whistle, mic, Dead ball, fault start.

I think the analogy I'm making is this: Suppose in a basketball game they made backcourt a technical foul instead of a violation. A player catches the ball out of bounds in the backcourt and then steps in. Because this is so hard to follow in realtime (I know; but bear with me), he doesn't realize that the player is out of bounds until after he whistles the backcourt violation. But he's sure he didn't get there legally.

Or put another way in this scenario the only way the player can commit violation two is by getting away with violation one. I guess that's not so weird since he got away with something. But that's what's been bothering me.
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There are a couple of pee wee leagues in my area that use the commissioner's son or brother-in-law or mechanic or whoever is available. Those guys have no current rule books and just call what they see on TV. Maybe he is one of them. That would explain a few things!

You answered it already, those are dead ball fouls. A dead ball foul we do not allow the ball to become live.

(I thought I did too with my third paragraph. But not with that one.)

So is illegal substitution. In all three cases the player violated a rule that should cause the ball to stay dead and the ball is made live. In the first two you go ahead and fix it but in the substitution case you instead call a live ball foul and penalize more.
That seems as weird to me as if the penalty for delay of game were 5 yards and the penalty for running a play after the play clock expired was 15.
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StarryEyed

Oh. Then I think your previous description was misleading, both here and in the Delphi Single Wing forum, which I took to mean your 12th was making no attempt to leave the field.

Robert

Then I'm afraid that by making that rule change, Fed has set up their officials for a lot of grief as herein. Used to be no particular requirement for the immediacy of the substitution, and if a team was hit with illegal participation, that was their problem. The new rule was probably adopted to keep team A from gaining an advantage deliberately or accidentally by delaying the exit of replaced players until team B couldn't do much about it -- like the way the Cincy Bengals offense would come up to the line and then "shift" their backs in a way that included the bench!

Now, no matter what anyone says, the illegal participation resulting from too many players at the time the ball is put in play is not only the offending team's fault. By making it possible for the officials to prevent play, they've made the foul depend partly on action/inaction by players and partly on action/inaction by officials.

This isn't the 1st time Fed has set up such a situation. In the 1960s, encroachment caused the ball to remain dead unless the ball was put in play before the official was able to whistle. The penalty was the same, but in one case the nonoffending team had the ability to take the result of the play.

Maybe Fed should've limited the application of the new rule to team A, although the Minn. Vikings apparently believed the defense could gain an advantage by huddling with 17 until the NFL banned that practice along with the Bengals' tactic.

The trouble is that Fed has created a dead ball violation that occurs at no particular moment. The wing officials can't "put up the gates" as in Canadian football. There are other ways this could be remedied by making the substitution process more formal and constrained as in the old days when subs had to report to the umpire -- it doesn't have to be exactly that, but something.

Robert

While we are talking about HS, in the Kansas USF game the officials just blew dead a live ball and called a substitution penalty on the defense... apparently this is possible. Are the NCAA rules that different?

My Defensive coordinator immediately apologized to the officials for the substitution. All the official needed to say was “It takes me 3 mins to count to 12 and I wouldn’t have gotten there without your help.” So, the flaw with this rule is some crews never would allow a substitution penalty to become a participation penalty because they know how to count and others will never call a substitution penalty because they are unreasonably slow. The slow crews need to shut it down.

I was watching the game but didn't see it. I was chatting with TXMike at the time and he said that they were killing it before the ball was snapped.

I thought they might have been, but with no officials on screen and no sound of whistles and the QB (I don’t remember if he threw the ball or was about to) well into the play. What’s the difference?

"If delay of game were 5 yards and the penalty for running a play after the play clock expired was 15." It is exactly like that only it is more important for officials to stop play in the substitution case for safety reasons. It is actually impossible to call participation when a substitution occurred without being guilty of neglect… blow it dead.

It is like ignoring a defensive end lined up in the offensive backfield and than calling a personnel foul when he puts the quarterback in a stretcher. Neglecting one penalty in order to allow dangerous situations and than ignoring everything that led to that point. Like awaking from a slumber of neglect.

The difference is that they were already killing the play before the ball was snapped meaning the ball was never legally snapped so the play never actually began. In Federation, a penalty does not kill a live play. I believe in NCAA the only way a penalty kills a play is if it is an illegal kick but I am not sure.

In your opinion coach. Counting players isn't the only pre-snap responsibility of officials. Don't forget the responsibility for having the correct amount of players on the field is yours, not ours. While we will shut it down if we can, we aren't forcing you to put too many players on the field.

OK I'm done, anything more is tilting at windmills.

OK, while I will not, once again, get drug too thourougly into this, I must make one comment: this is not a trial, we are not in court, and the is not the college debate club. You need to give up the unethical and neglect talk. Nowhere was it proved that the official acted maliciously (and, no, the supposed fact that he had his hand on his penalty flag before the snap does not in any way prove that the official knew the correct count before the snap). When you blantanly call an official unethical and accuse him of negelct, you better darn well have concrete proof of such violations. If you want to debate the rules, fine, but, please, don't drag what may be an honest man through the mud just because you want to prove a point.

First of all different officials count offense and defense, so how long it takes to count offense has no place in this discussion.

Second, your statement "Under no circumstances should this situation occur" is unfounded as the casebook states in 3.7.1 SIT B: ...or (b) A12 is in the formation as an extra lineman. This clearly implies that this situation does occur.

I wouldn't go by that. Situations are sometimes retained in case books well after rules changes make them impossible.

However, a situation in which illegal participation as a result of dead ball substitution could occur even with clairvoyant officials would be if the 12th player was heading toward the team bench area, then the ball was put in play and that player changed his mind and decided to participate that down.

Robert

As a Wisconsin official, I tried working Saturday youth football right after I moved to the state. I gave that up after too many encounters with hothead know-it-alls like this original poster. Now I only work school ball where I have complete control of the situation. I have a varsity crew and if youth football wasn't so disorganized here, I'd have my crew working on Saturdays for experience and for some extra moolah. It just isn't worth it.

Look, OP: You are absolutely right. If the crew (and that's a big if, especially if your organization is CHEEEEEAP and hires only 3 officials to work these games, which is pretty normal, I've found) they are simply not going to get a count in before every snap of the game. If they do, fine, it's a five yard illegal substitution penalty.

If they don't get a count before the snap and 12 play, it's illegal participation, live ball, 15 yards. And before you pass this blame on the officials, WHO PUT 12 ON THE FIELD IN THE FIRST PLACE?

As far as the conduct of the official and your conduct, I would be happy that youth programs where coaches act like you did are able to get any licensed officials to work. Be thankful. I wouldn't touch youth football again unless things changed dramatically around here.

To paraphrase Brian Billick:

Players play.

Coaches coach.

Owners own.

Writers write.

Officials officiate.

If everyone just does their specific tasks, we're okay. It's when people believe they are well-versed in the tasks the other groups do that we have problems.

And they use these guys because of hothead idiots like the original poster. No licensed official wants to put up with this crap (or won't do it for what they are paying).

It is amazing how uninformed this guy is. Dangerous to run a play with 12? Allowing a player to line up in the neutral zone is dangerous to the quarterback?

Jeez, I'm getting dizzy with all the stupid coach-speak being bandied about here. It's very rare that we officials keep players from getting hit or hurt. My whistle and flag doesn't stop players, common sense and not being a thug stops players. You hear coaches say "play to the whistle" and then try to blame the officials if there's a late hit because the "whistle" was late. My goodness.

Working a freshman game, a trainer actually asked a wing to have a quicker whistle on plays so players wouldn't get hurt. I told the wing that he should tell the trainer to call me so I can tell him how to wrap an ankle.

I just have one question. If you are an official, and this problem happens in your game are you going to call it Illegal substitution?

I am doing everything I can to count the players before the snap and shut it down for an illegal subsctitution before the snap. But if I don't get the count completed for some reason and confirm after the play that there were 12 players, there will be an illegal participation. I'm happy to say we've never had an illegal participation for this reason and illegal substitution is also very rare (2 or 3 times each season).

Youth football scrapes the bottom of the barrel for officials for several reasons, all related to money. One is that the scholastic programs outbid them money-wise for personnel. Another is that conditions are poor, with small crews, poorly marked fields, and uncertain times. By the latter I mean the start of games may be delayed because of a need to wait for the field to become available, but on the other hand forfeits are not uncommon. You may wind up with a game ending in near darkness, have to deal with people who wander thru the field because they don't realize a game is under way, be asked to enforce many local variant rules, all sorts of conditions that wouldn't come up often in scholastic ball.

Of course the coaches operate under those & other handicaps as well, not related to money. Talk about 12 on the field? Last year the Jr. Pee-Wee team I coached on had trouble keeping 11 on the field -- players kept taking themselves out or failing to go in! There were occasions you could've called USC on coaches on the same side cursing each other out.

Robert

This is the whole point. I know how to count. Maybe I give others to much credit, but it isn’t hard and it doesn’t take long. This specific situation had loads of “extra time” to count. The official also proved by many actions he knew the count before the snap. Grabbing the flag and holding it until the snap then throwing it the instant the snap occurred is a good indication of that knowledge. He made a mistake. I didn’t yell at him. I brought up the correct rule. Instead of apologizing or giving the only possible (but actually impossible due to his actions) justification of not having the count in time, he went ballistic. He couldn’t bring himself to accept that he was wrong and took it out on me. I wanted to be sure of the rules because this was so out of the ordinary and didn’t want to be guilty of “dragging this guy through the mud.” This guy was probably hired by our opposition not my league which could as suggested be the explanation for his inexperience and low quality. I don’t know how this particular opponent staffs it’s games. I think the people that have posted using the fact that I have actively questioned one call in 15 years of football as evidence that I am some sort of hothead is an indictment of their professionalism (if they have any). I have found the conclusion to the questions.

I didn’t do anything out of line by simply stating rules (correctly)

The official made a mistake maliciously or in incompetence about enforcing a rule. Than compounded the error hundreds of times by lashing out at me.

I should have perhaps known he was acting childish immediately, but I was honestly not sure hence my request for a conference at all. I don’t remember my exact words used to calm him down so they aren’t really in my OP although I stated I had to calm him down.

The rules are somewhat flawed in that they allow unethical abuse and create honest confusion among some, but otherwise fine. I did think this specific situation needed to be addressed by the rules but now realize it was simply the officials error.

If I was officiating this wouldn’t have happened because the count never is a problem. So, it would have to take some extra-ordinary circumstances like the extra player entering the field within 3 seconds of the snap. That actually is illegal participation so I would call that. If I was vomiting or something prior to the snap and missed the count I would call participation. I would explain to the defensive teams coach that I made a mistake do to my vomiting and had to apply a rule that isn’t really intended for that situation.

In terms of amending the rules. The ethical question still remains because this does get botched up from time to time. If the official knows he made a mistake he probably should be able to blow it dead during a live ball for safety or have a different infraction to enforce. The team couldn’t have committed the participation if the ref did his job, but he didn’t so it’s a 10 yard live ball substitution or something.

Who put 12 on the field, anyway? Perhaps someone else ought to be looking into the "incompetence" mirror.

The only mistake the official made was engaging you for so long. I wouldn't have even come to the sidelines to discuss this with you.

I wish you'd stated it that way to start with.

Fortunately for me, there is a huge youth league here that contacts with the association I belong to. The league is well managed, well funded and for the most part, is kept in control. We have the occasional issue, especially with teams from certain cities that are poorly managed but we have a great relationship with the league. In turn, the league provides a great place for newer officials to build and refine their officiating skills. Due to the quality of the league, there are many veteran officials that don't mind working there so we are able to facilitate a good learning experience and knowledge transfer. To top it off, the quality of play is actually pretty good with many of the teams from the oldest age group being better than quite a few high school freshman teams.

How many times does this need to be said? My D-coordinator realized the substitution error and was yelling onto the field before the snap. Which probably helped official count faster. He then apologized for the substitution error immediately after the play.

1)So, he made a substitution
2)the player new to football got mixed up
3)He discovered and attempted to fix the error
4)And apologized for it

Why are you obsessed with this? It doesn’t offset failure to officiate. That’s the business of officiating. If games could be played without a single rule infraction or mistake there would be no officials. By your logic my team commits one penalty in a game, my player gets ejected for jumping offside and I can’t object because I didn’t coach him well enough to not jump offside? It is hard to withstand your absurdity. I hope you realize you are doing it.

Obsessed? You are going on and on and on about one flag. Who freaking cares?

At the end of the day, it's not our fault if the snap happens with 12. We count players, yes. If we don't, though, it's not our fault one of the teams can't count to 12. There's a reason playing with 12 has its very own little rule attached to it.

It is impossible to withstand your idiocy. This is why I stick with wearing the white hat on Friday nights and leave Saturday mornings to the dad-wanna-be coaches and the poor saps that feel they need the money so badly they need to listen to you in order to get it. (And BTW, it's likely why you don't get decent officials who would stop this before the snap. I did the whole Saturday youth thing for a while and after throwing at least 5-6 USC flags on coaches per week for running onto the field to argue calls I gave it up. I didn't even make it through one season. And I have a crew on the WIAA playoff list.)

It's been a few days since the OP & this "coach/official" still doesnt get it... unbelievable!

Let's just say the official in question saw the infraction & decided to "get you" on a 15 instead of a
5.
Well, that would be wrong but inexperience is what all participants & spectators should expect at that level.
Just like we expect coaches (who allow their team to come out of a TO with 12 playeys on the field) to be inexperienced.
Do you think the most qualified officials are lining up for those assignments or working NCAA games on Saturday?!?!
I know I see my share of horrible play calling at that level, but I don't comment on it.

Who wouldn't get pissed by a coach quoting incorrect rules to them. Justify to YOU why I didn't count before the snap?? Please. You should be glad that I didn't work your game. I'd have run your a$$ for citing rules like the following to me.

Sorta like this one :rolleyes:

It should've read:
Questionable or missed calls aren't fatal, too much focus on officiating is. At the youth level misapplication of rules &/or lack of knowledge by the officials should be used to teach kids how to handle adversity & also that life isn't fair... deal with it! Suck on lemons or turn them into lemonade.
Embrace those opportunities to educate our youth, teach them life-lessons through sports.
Respect our fraternity!

You must have a great staff if you can pay this close attention to an official before the snap. You're not doing anything else? And you're still harping on it? Man.

Ok, just one more time. Looking at this from a coach's perspective (I coach girls 14U AAU), you made a classic mistake. You clearly stated that you did not want to use a time out. The mistake you made was letting an official decide your fate. Never would I sit back and hope that an official makes the call that I want them to when I have all the control in the situation. You gave him the control to decide your fate. Right, wrong, or indifferent, it doesn't matter. You gave the chance to decide your fate to the official and you deserve what you got.

Daggo, that doesn't make sense. If you're about to have a delay penalty and you'd rather take it than the timeout, you still have a right to complain about it being assessed as a 15 yard penalty. The mistake he made was not having a clue how to deal with an official. (And being wrong about the rule -- though I still maintain the correctness of the AR is a little suspect).
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Coach,
I have read all your posts here & it looks like you story is changing to meet your request. You need to remember the officials are not there to screw you.

Also from reading this long thread it looks like you are also quoting old rule & case books. I would suggest next year when you are requested to attend a rules meeting you go. Your interpretation of the rule is wrong, period.

Regardless to how you feel, you had 12 players on the field. For whatever reason the count was not done until right before the snap, I know if I count 12 I do a recount. After the snap IT IS A LIVE BALL FOUL.

This whole thread reinforces my thought that if coaches put as much effort into knowing the rules, as they do into tell the officials they are wrong you might get what we are doing every Friday night.

Also Daggo66 wrote this "Rule 3.7.1 Situation B. It's on page 27. The case book explains the rule with real life situations. Yours is right there in black and white. I believe this is the part where you either say Mea Culpa or are never heard from again." read that rule.

It makes all the sense in the world. The coach made an error. His team did not properly substitute. He could have easily corrected it with a time out. He chose to let the official make a judgement decision as to which penalty he was going to call. It is unimportant if you agree or disagree with what the official did. As a coach you should never ever let an official make a decision that can affect you when you have the opportunity to correct it.

I am still trying to figure out how the official is unethical to enforce a rule?

Peace

That's a problem that, unfortunately, is tough for us as officials to overcome. There's too much animosity between coaches and officials, in part (but not totally) because of a misunderstanding about what we're trying to do and our motivations.

I've not coached, so I'm not going to try to read a coach's mind or detect his motivations for things, yet, too often, coaches think they know what we're thinking or what our objectives and reasons for doing things are.

Not all take it to the extreme of "they're out to screw us," but I don't believe that as many coaches as we'd like look at us as partners in the educational process (which I believe we all are).

Trust me - we're not in it for the money or the glory and ain't 1% of us going to the NFL, so it's not for that, either.

I don't know what the solution is. Just something that has always struck me out the relationship between coaches and officials (and not just in football).

Nothing there doesn't work in my delay of game scenario. Again, the problem is that he doesn't seem to understand the participation/substitution rule, not calling the timeout wasn't the mistake. If he had known what was going on he could have accomplished the same thing as not taking a timeout, by saying to the official, I've got twelve on the field.
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Cheap Vape

While the way the Federation wants us to call Illegal Substitution / Illegal Participation is unique, that is how they want it called and they are very clear about it in their Casebook ruling. That's all there is to it. It is not our fault if coaches do not understand the rules.

If the coach tells you he has twelve, you still have to count. If during the count the snap happens, then it is IP. Rules are rules, we are there to enforce them. Not change them as this play has changed.

So it's no longer dangerous to have 12 guys on the field? If somebody got hurt in that situation, you'll have an awful hard time sleeping that night.

Look at this another way, say they have no timeouts left. And they realize a few seconds before the snap that they have too many and they aren't going to be able to get the guys off. In your mind is there anyway for there to be a dead ball foul if you don't count fast?
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How is the fact that there are 12 guys on the field my problem? My job is to enforce the rules as they are written. The rule is pretty clear here. If I don't get to 12 before the snap, I have participation. If I can get the count right before the snap, I am killing the play. Like has been stated, if I count 12, I am going to recount. In this situation, there are usually two officials counting the defense. Are you saying the other guy was sticking it to this team too?

Your statement about me sleeping at night? No, I will sleep well. I will enforce the rules as they are written. Agree with them or disagree with them. They will be enforced.

Coach,
This is where you went wrong. Because you thought that you were going to get a 5 yard penalty everything was OK. But because you misunderstood the right rule it cost you 10 more yards.

What I’ll remember most from this thread:

“howler monkey”

There is no basis for us to stop the play in order to complete the count. Remember there are two teams on the field. Why should we hold back the offense from making a play just because the defense "may" have substituted incorrectly. Remember you can only call what you see. If you don't see 12 men you can't call it until you do.

You really need to give this argument up. You cannot jump to the conclusion that he knew the count based on this. It is not logical to assume that he had his hand on his flag to signal an IS foul (plus you probably know what happens when you assume).

A very small concession to you...if the official truly went ballistic (which may or may not be true), he was not justified and he was wrong.

Because I am sure you staff your games with NFL officials on their off days. Also, you are tired of people focusing on you, yet you continue to bash this official. He made a call different that you expected, and you just go off and name call and make unfounded, dangerous accusations. Since in your mind, if an official makes one even so-so call he is inexperienced and low quality. Using this logic, Ed Hochuli is low quality.

Need I remind you of the entire 'three seconds' debate?

To quote Ronald Reagan: "There you go again" with making unbased accusations.

You have had a bunch of officials on here tell you that the call was correct. Are they all unethical too?

You are the only one who has come up with the silly ethical question. You want to talk about ethics? OK, is it ethical for a coach to come on here and smear an official who probably does not even know anything about the savage attack you have waged on him? Is it ethical to blame an official when the original mistake that was made was your own? Is it ethical to continue to argue with a group of officials who started this discussion by trying to help you out and explain the rules to you?

I think you are confusing 2 things here...they are: (1) blatanly ignoring the count before the play (in which case, yes, it is partially the official's fault for letting 12 be out there for the play) and (2) not finishing your count for whatever reason (in which case, it is a very sad thing if a player get hurts, but certainly is not the fault of the official). Going back to the OP, it still seems to be a failure to finish the count in time.

I'm really not sure what this has to do with the first part of your post, but if you are only part of they way through the count when the snap occurs, it would be IP for 12 on the field.

How exactly do you know he was aware that there were 12 on the field prior to the ball becoming live?

Oh no, don't get him started. Truth is, that can't be proved.

Let me get this straight. You tell us you are an official, but you don't know what the case book is?

If I count 12, I'm counting again. Twice.

If I count 10, I'm counting again. Once. And checking with my partner who's also counting.

I hope I have time to do all this, but my first priority is to get it right, not to get it inside a coach's timeframe. If he counts faster than me, bully for him. But I have a lot of stuff I have to do between snaps.

So you're an official and you don't realize that different people are responsible for counting offense and defense?

This just gets better and better.

Yes, that is why I have quoted the case book numerous times including the OP.

No, but I didn't realize so many officials are so cavalier about counting on time. I was simply saying it takes less than 1 second to count offense in formation. Let me save you a post because I know you will say “You’re an official and you don’t know you count the offense before they get in formation.” I am curious what would cause you to not count in time specifically?

Oooooook. It can't be proved. He just made himself look extreemly guilty by throwing a flag when he should have whistled.

Really? Awesome.

There, I fixed it for ya :rolleyes:

In a situation where there's a hurry-up offense, the officials might be working hard to get the ball spotted. I know for a fact I didn't have a count last night on a few plays (before the snap) since we were working four and I was spotting the ball before signaling the RFP and getting out of the way so they could run the next play.

Punt situations, where subs are off and on too quickly -- I may count 12, but I'm not throwing my flag until I recount 12. If I don't get through a second count, I'll make sure to get it during/after the play, but then we have IP, not IS.

The penalty is not having 12 on the field prior to the snap -- it's the 12th coming on and his substitute not leaving in a timely manner. If the snap occurs before we can determine if a substitute left, then there's little we can do.

Serious question, now. Do you officiate? I absolutely will not work a game with 3 officials anymore (life's too short, IMO), but I'm guessing your games are played with 3. Do you think 3 guys, working to get a ball spotted, working to make sure the chains are right, etc. are going to be able to leisurely count the players on every play in order to overcome the teams' inability to put 12 on the field? I would do the best I could, but not feel at all guilty if I didn't get the count before the snap and had to penalize IP. Wouldn't affect my sleep.

Being an official, as you claim, surely you realize that there are other pre-snap responsibilities besides counting players right?

Why would you bring up counting the offense? I thought it was a defensive player in question.

What position do you work, anyhow?

This thread has got to be one of the longest pi**ing contests I've ever seen. Seriously everyone, isn't it time to move on?

Well, it takes less than a second..... :rolleyes:

Yes
I was talking about counting. I brought it up because it pertains to counting.
I'm not on a crew anymore because my coaching creates scheduling conflicts :-( I do fill in occasionally when need be. Whatever position necessary obviously.

All my home games have 4. This away game had 4.

Then you know that it takes more than a second to count 11. And that you absolutely must recount if you arrive at a number other than 11.

Grant's right. Time to move on.

Due to your schedule conflicts attending camps, clinics, rules meetings, etc. probably aren't on your high priority list of things to do, correct?



Why is it that the "I referee too" guys always seem to ref on a part-part-time basis, never invest in themselves by attending camps but KNOW all the rules?

For sure. 12 pages arguing with a youth coach. I guess it never occurred to him to teach his kids that s*** happens, life deals you some curveballs, and it's how you react to it that counts. Whatever happened to the high road?

Please moderator.... for the love of all that is holy....... lock this thread. 12 pages of crap.

I wasted a boatload of time reading this thread and I was thinking the entire time, "Several years ago, before we were instructed to have a dead ball IS foul if the player being substituted for didn't leave in a timely manner, we didn't do anything if there were 12 on the field. We counted A & B; if A was short, we made sure we had 7 on the line; if either was over, we waited to see what happened. If the extra player(s) left, we had nothing; if they tried to get off the field but didn't, we had IS; if they stayed and participated, we had IP.

Now, we do things differently.

I was wondering if the official in question, almost 200 posts ago, was officiating with the older interpretation in mind? It's possible, knowing the types (pre-judging) of officials that end up working youth football games. Maybe he was as out of date with what he was suppose to do as the original poster was misunderstanding the IS/IP differences?

Obviously, mistakes happen. It's how we deal with mistakes that define us as coaches/officials/players.

As far as youngump is concerned, there is a reason that football has the difference in distance for the penalties, and that they don't transfer to BB or BB or SB.

If we observe the 12 on the field with no one immediately leaving, we don't have an "injury risk" due to the extra player. We observe and penalize without allowing the ball to be put into play. Once the ball is in play AND we didn't observe the extra player AND he participates, by Football Fundamental, we can't stop the play. Now, we have an "injury risk", because we are playing 12 against 11. That is why the penalty is greater before the ball is alive verses after the ball is alive.

In BB and BB and SB, the officials determine when the ball is alive. We hold up play until we and the players are ready. In football, it is the responsiblity of the teams to field the correct number of players and for the officials to count them. Sometimes we make mistakes counting - most times we don't. But a major differnence is that in football, the offense determines when the ball becomes alive. So, the officials have less control about delaying if there are extra players on the field/court.

Sorry to drag this never ending thread on even longer.

Reads as reasonable to me. Considering how slowly many youth players wake up to being subbed for, then even if the league was supposedly following Fed rules, some of the officials may have a mental reservation about enforcing "immediate" substitution with children, else they'd have IS violations galore, and was enforcing only IP in such cases. If hawkishowl's teams were better at executing substitution than other teams in their league, he may not have realized officials were allowing extra players to leave up until the moment the ball was put in play. Just a guess.

Robert

The last two posts make a lot of sense. Had they been the first two responses this thread would be one page.

The fact is after nearly 200 posts you found a couple that conditionally agree with you and you find these to be sensible? Someone mentioned it earlier, you were not interested in what anyone had to say until it agreed with your opinion.

This is like having a conversation with my brother who is a lawyer. Ever when he knows his argument is wrong he tries to get me to change my mind. Talking with him is a waste of time and energy. This whole thread is much the same. Of the 150 or so people that tell him he was wrong & how it was ruled is correct, he still looks for the few that agree with his argument. :confused:

I’m glad your newly found psychic abilities have given you the ability to contribute something. Stop acting holier than thou.

He probably has a lot of fun with you. You (probably) often have no idea what you’re talking about and have no ability to explain or defend your position. “I’m right, this is right, isn’t a discussion.” Lacking the ability to speak and think logically is a major deficiency. Perhaps you will overcome it one day.

Sorry, Hawk. When I see something that looks like a duck and walks like a duck and quacks like a duck I'm calling it a duck.

If you want an honest opinion you should not post here.

If, and only if, what you said was true, the official let the play go with full knowledge of 12 on the field that was incorrect.

The collegiate officials' manual states an official if unable to complete his count before the snap you can call illegal participation. It is incumbent upon the players and coaches to have the correct number of players on the field, not the officials.

Not being there and considering your biased opinion one is left to wonder if the official deliberately withheld to get the illegal participation.

Whatever the case the fact there were 12 players during the play it is illegal participation and it is suggested you count your players in the future.

I didn't read all the pages in this thread so I aplogize if this has already been posted. When I count the players and have more than 11 players before the snap, I ALWAYS recount before I throw my flag. Sometimes during the recount they snap the ball. Nothing looks worse than throwing a flag thinking you have more than 11 and then flagging and see that there are just 11 players. It's like thinking you have foul and flagging it. If you think you have something you don't. We must know we have a foul. That is why I take a second count so that I know the count. If I count 12 twice then by golly we got twelve. I'm sure we've all done this before and counted 12 the first time and then recounted and there were only 11. If I do that I'll count a third time.