4th down change of possession

[phansen]

Casebook 5.3.3 discusses how the ball is placed after 4th down and a change in possession. From what I understand the ball is placed as it was prior to the 4th down play on a pass. On a run the foremost point of the ball now becomes the rear point of the ball for the new offensive team. The line-to-gain chains would move accordingly to the foremost point of the ball in the new direction.

Is this correct? Or am I missing something?

[Jim D]

You are correct, however this is rarely done correctly. Most crews will move the ball and keep the chains set where they are just because it's easier.

[phansen]

Jim

Thanks for the confirmation. Seems like an awfully complicated way to explain that the ball stays where it is and only the chains should move.

[JugglingReferee]

Originally Posted by phansen

Casebook 5.3.3 discusses how the ball is placed after 4th down and a change in possession. From what I understand the ball is placed as it was prior to the 4th down play on a pass. On a run the foremost point of the ball now becomes the rear point of the ball for the new offensive team. The line-to-gain chains would move accordingly to the foremost point of the ball in the new direction.

Is this correct? Or am I missing something?

CANADIAN MECHANIC:

The LS is the tip of the ball closest to B's goalline, with the rest of the football is in A's backfield. After a last-down incomplete pass, the Referee shall pivot the ball 180º around said football-tip, such that the LS doesn't change. The rest of the football shall now be in B's backfield, which becomes the new team A because of the change of possession.

[JugglingReferee]

Originally Posted by phansen

Casebook 5.3.3 discusses how the ball is placed after 4th down and a change in possession. From what I understand the ball is placed as it was prior to the 4th down play on a pass. On a run the foremost point of the ball now becomes the rear point of the ball for the new offensive team. The line-to-gain chains would move accordingly to the foremost point of the ball in the new direction.

Is this correct? Or am I missing something?

So then in the US, the LS actually changes on a 4th-down incomplete pass?

Play: The tip of the football is at centre-ice: right in the middle of the 50 yard stripe (equidistant from both goallines). On 4th down, A throws an incomplete pass. (Let's say that the ball is 10 inches in length, therefore the back tip is at the 49 yard, 26 inch line.)

Ruling: When B takes over on downs, is the tip of the ball for forward progress now the 49 yard, 26 inch line, or does it remain, as it should, at the 50 yard line?

[Sonofanump]

The defense is awarded 11 1/2 inches for the play.

[Theisey]

Nothing really complicated at all..

Just as the case book states.. you place the ball back to the exact spot
is was. Same as you would do if it were any other down on a play that resulted in an incomplete pass.

It takes all of five seconds to re-adjust the chains while the teams are in process of exchanging there offense/defense.
Sure it only buys the new offensive team 11 or so inches, but it's the correct mechanic to follow and it should be followed.

[JugglingReferee]

Usually the US gets things correct, when it comes to rules, etc. I often look to how the NFL does things/what when through their mind to design mechanics, etc, but this ruling has got to be the most inconsistent thing I've ever read in any sporting adjudication.

[Jim D]

This usually gets handled in the NFL just like it does in high school. After a 4th down incomplete pass where the nose of the ball was on the 40 going in, the ball is next placed with the nose of the ball on the 40 going out and the chains don't move. Technically this is incorrect, but I can't remember the last time I saw it done according to the book.

[Careyy]

Originally Posted by JugglingReferee

So then in the US, the LS actually changes on a 4th-down incomplete pass?

The neutral zone stays the same, A's leading edge of the ball is B's trailing edge and vice versa.

Given only the leading edge of the ball matters for a TD, it makes sense.

Crews I've worked on make the switch with the chains. It is called football and not inch ball, but this one is easy to get right.

[JugglingReferee]

Originally Posted by Careyy

The neutral zone stays the same, A's leading edge of the ball is B's trailing edge and vice versa.

Given only the leading edge of the ball matters for a TD, it makes sense.

Crews I've worked on make the switch with the chains. It is called football and not inch ball, but this one is easy to get right.

You forgot first downs.

I realize that I'm Canadian, and didn't grow up with the American game, but it doesn't make sense.

Football is in fact a game of inches. Two recent professional cases in point: Tyree's catch - an inch more and he doesn't catch that ball, and NE completes a season that could never be topped. There was a team a few years ago that was stopped about 18 inches short of the goalline for a Superbowl win.

I think football has two fundamentals: forward progress and field position. Team A earned field position to the 40 yard line going in, therefore B should start there, not gaining a free 11½ inches of field position, just because it's "easier" to move the chains a few inches, or to keep the same neutral zone.

[Welpe]

I think it is easier to flip the ball around than to relocate the chains. In my warped little mind, it makes more sense to move the chains. This way, the ball's physical location on the field never changes.

[waltjp]

Originally Posted by JugglingReferee

Usually the US gets things correct, when it comes to rules, etc. I often look to how the NFL does things/what when through their mind to design mechanics, etc, but this ruling has got to be the most inconsistent thing I've ever read in any sporting adjudication.

It's not the line of scrimmage that dictates the position of the ball, it's the ball that dictates the line of scrimmage. Assume A has the ball on B's 6-inch line. They thrown an incomplete pass. B will take over on downs. If you flip the ball around so the forward point of the ball is on the 6-inch line half of the ball will be in the end zone.

[waltjp]

Originally Posted by Jim D

You are correct, however this is rarely done correctly. Most crews will move the ball and keep the chains set where they are just because it's easier.

None of the crews I know of move the ball instead of the chains. 99% of the time you're moving the chains anyway. How often does the offense run 4 plays and lose the ball on downs without gaining any yardage?

The linesman should be giving the spot, or at least verifying that the chain crew is in the correct spot anyway.

[Robert Goodman]

Originally Posted by JugglingReferee

I think football has two fundamentals: forward progress and field position. Team A earned field position to the 40 yard line going in, therefore B should start there, not gaining a free 11½ inches of field position, just because it's "easier" to move the chains a few inches, or to keep the same neutral zone.

But the ball is not a point, it takes up space. In determining whether the ball is in goal, any part of the ball counts, but in determining whether a goal is scored, the entire ball must be seen to pass thru the plane of the goal (and not return in NCAA or NFL). The ball is spotted for scrimmage in such a way as to establish a neutral zone. So why should "forward progress" effectively shrink the ball to a point?

The only tricky thing in all this is what happens on a 4th down incomplete pass where the previous spot had been less than the ball's length from the goal line, which it can be if on 3rd down the ball was being carried long axis sideways and just made it out of the end zone. (Can't happen in Canadian football, notwithstanding the 4th down, because they don't scrimmage with any part of the ball less than 1 yd. from the goal line.) Where do you spot the ball for the other team's 1st down? Automatic TD? I asked Brice Durbin at Fed about this in 1980, and he said that's why they instruct their officials when a team just escapes a safety like that, to rotate the ball for the spot so that its back end is out of the end zone. A technically illegal mechanic to avoid a situation not covered by the rules.

However, I have seen in the NFL when a safety was narrowly avoided, the ball's being rotated for the spot in such a way as to put its back end in the end zone. Presumably a half-the-distance penalty in that case would move the front point of the ball half the distance; otherwise it'd be the back end of the ball.

Robert