4th down change of possession

[JugglingReferee]

Originally Posted by waltjp

It's not the line of scrimmage that dictates the position of the ball, it's the ball that dictates the line of scrimmage. Assume A has the ball on B's 6-inch line. They thrown an incomplete pass. B will take over on downs. If you flip the ball around so the forward point of the ball is on the 6-inch line half of the ball will be in the end zone.

Yet another problem with US rules.

So to prevent dealing with this situation, the rulesmakers simply give B free yardage.

[Careyy]

I think there are two potential perspectives:

1) The ball itself establishes the neutral zone and after 4th down and an inc pass, that neutral zone is unchanged. B (now A) has gained nothing in terms of the neutral zone. This also avoids the safety in the case where rotation around the leading point of the ball would cause the length of the ball would intersect the goal line. Plus in effect the ball was 49.9 yards from the goalline for B, the rotation has move it to 50, B loses yardage.

2) If the leading edge it what "A" has gained, then "B" would gain the ball length, unless the ball is rotated arounfd that leading edge. The issue in this case would be the ball close to the goal line and associated safety.

So if we look at it from the perspective of the established neutral zone being what "A" has gained vs the leading edge of the ball, we go with #1.

I look at is as neutral zone establishment, and see the logic in avoiding the safety. I don't know Canadian rules, so if you do start from no closer than the 1, then the ball rotation safety could be avoided, and using the leading edge and rotation works, without that start from the one it wouldn't.

So if we rotate B can be seen to lose the ball length vs your argument that they gain without rotation.

As I see it the ball has a length and there are in effect two lines of scrimmage, one for A and one for B, replacing the ball back in the same position keeps both of these lines the same, rotation moves them.

[waltjp]

Originally Posted by JugglingReferee

Yet another problem with US rules.

So to prevent dealing with this situation, the rulesmakers simply give B free yardage.

I'd counter that the ball didn't move at all. Nobody gained anything...except maybe possession.

[Robert Goodman]

Originally Posted by Careyy

I think there are two potential perspectives:

1) The ball itself establishes the neutral zone and after 4th down and an inc pass, that neutral zone is unchanged. B (now A) has gained nothing in terms of the neutral zone. This also avoids the safety in the case where rotation around the leading point of the ball would cause the length of the ball would intersect the goal line.

That last case is not the problem. Team A's line can be in their end zone, and as I've written I've seen the ball spotted like that in the NFL. No safety is awarded on the ball's entering the end zone while dead.

The problem is the apparent touchdown when a team with the ball so spotted on 4th down throws an incomplete pass. You can scrimmage with A's line in their end zone, but not B's.

2) If the leading edge it what "A" has gained, then "B" would gain the ball length, unless the ball is rotated arounfd that leading edge. The issue in this case would be the ball close to the goal line and associated safety.

Also not a problem; see above.

Robert

[Mike L]

The linemen and where they can be set to be considered "on the line" may be in the end zone, but the line of scrimmage for either A or B can never be in an endzone.

[Robert Goodman]

Originally Posted by Mike L

The linemen and where they can be set to be considered "on the line" may be in the end zone, but the line of scrimmage for either A or B can never be in an endzone.

Why not, if the back of the ball is there? 1D: A1's run ends with the ball being held with its long axis parallel to the yard lines, and the entire ball just barely out of the end zone. When you ready it for play for 2D, you put its nose at the foremost point when the runner's progress was stopped, resulting in its tail's being behind the goal line. Unless you're following Brice Durbin's instruction to always (unless it's a safety, of course) make the spot have enough room to put the ball entirely outside the end zone, no matter how it was positioned when it became dead.

Robert

[Mike L]

You have to move the dead ball spot in that situation, otherwise by rule you have now caused a dead ball to be in someones endzone. And a dead ball in an endzone is either a touchdown, a safety, or a touchback. See ruling 5.3.4 sit A in the casebook.

[waltjp]

Robert, highly unlikely situation to be sure, but in your example what happens when A throws 4 consecutive incomplete passes and B takes over on downs? Does the R signal first down for B followed by signaling TD?

Mike L has it right. You can't place the ball in such a way that any portion of it is in the end zone.

[Robert Goodman]

Originally Posted by waltjp

Robert, highly unlikely situation to be sure, but in your example what happens when A throws 4 consecutive incomplete passes and B takes over on downs? Does the R signal first down for B followed by signaling TD?

That was exactly the problem I pointed out in this thread, and here previously, and to Brice Durbin of Fed in 1980.

Mike L has it right. You can't place the ball in such a way that any portion of it is in the end zone.

So how do you place it, and what is the rules justif'n for doing so, when the dead ball spot is so close to the goal line that rotating it while preserving its foremost point would put a portion of it in the end zone?

I've seen it done in the NFL. And the rule book provisions seem to require the same in all major USAn codes, Brice Durbin's informal workaround nothwithstanding. But I've no idea how they would handle the turnover on downs problem posed above.

I believe the current rules provisions regarding awards when part of a dead ball is in an end zone apply only as the ball becomes dead or a spot is awarded, not during the readying of a ball for play or the handling of a dead ball pre-play. Otherwise you'd be giving a TD when a player of A adjusting the ball for a snap close to B's goal line inadvertently moves it over the plane of the goal line for a moment.

However, there was a time in American and Canadian football when TDs were awarded during the administration of a dead ball. When A carried the ball over a side line behind an opponent's goal line, a player of A would walk the ball in 5 to 15 paces or yards, and touch it down, which action was required for the score. The same occurred before the forward progress rule, and the runner would say "down" and be allowed to put the ball down -- ordinarily for scrimmage, but if beyond the goal line, a TD.

The rules were later changed in ways that would abolish such formailities, but when the rule making an incomplete forward pass dead and returned to the previous spot, the possibility of the strange occurrence mentioned above when the ball's turned over on downs was unaccounted for.

Robert

[Mike L]

The official case book ruling is you must move the ball so no portion of it is in the endzone. So someone gains a couple inches. No big deal. And there is quite a difference between where the officials place a dead ball and what is allowed for adjustment by the center. The line of scrimmage is set upon the ready from the R, so adjustment by the center after that does not move the line of scrimmage and therefore you still do not have the line in the endzone or, for ruling purposes, the ball in the end zone either.
What was done last year, the year before, or 50 years ago is inconsequential really. The only thing that matters is how the rules makers want us to do it now. And not having a dead ball placed in the end zone is how they want it.

oh and ps - I have never seen a dead ball placed in the end zone by the NFL or anyone else, but maybe you've been around a lot longer or my memory is for sh!t.

[waltjp]

Originally Posted by Mike L

I have never seen a dead ball placed in the end zone by the NFL or anyone else, but maybe you've been around a lot longer or my memory is for sh!t.

I think your memory is just fine. I've never seen or heard of anything like what's being suggested by leaving a portion of the ball in the end zone.

[Jim D]

Originally Posted by Robert Goodman

That last case is not the problem. Team A's line can be in their end zone, and as I've written I've seen the ball spotted like that in the NFL. No safety is awarded on the ball's entering the end zone while dead.


Robert

That is NOT the rule or the practice in the NFL. The ball remains in the same spot and the chains are moved. Now in this situation by the goal line, they would always be moved. In the middle of the field sometimes the crew gets lazy and they just move the ball, but moving the ball is not the rule or the approved practice.

[Robert Goodman]

Originally Posted by Mike L

The line of scrimmage is set upon the ready from the R, so adjustment by the center after that does not move the line of scrimmage and therefore you still do not have the line in the endzone or, for ruling purposes, the ball in the end zone either.

It's a dead ball, and it's in the end zone. Just to show you that while the ball is dead, it can enter the end zones without a touchback, touchdown, or safety's occurring. And you don't even have to say, "May I?"

oh and ps - I have never seen a dead ball placed in the end zone by the NFL or anyone else, but maybe you've been around a lot longer or my memory is for sh!t.

I remember the shot on TV of the administration of the dead ball (a safety narrowly averted), and the announcer's remarking about the unusual event in the close-up goal line shot of the ball's being rotated so it overlapped the goal line. The announcer and color man jib-jabbed about, so is it a safety now, no it only counts as it's first spotted, etc. Team A was going from left to right; I don't remember anything else about it, except that it was 1974 or later because the goals were on the end lines.

Robert

[Robert Goodman]

Originally Posted by Jim D

That is NOT the rule or the practice in the NFL. The ball remains in the same spot and the chains are moved. Now in this situation by the goal line, they would always be moved. In the middle of the field sometimes the crew gets lazy and they just move the ball, but moving the ball is not the rule or the approved practice.

I think you quoted & replied to the wrong post.