4th down change of possession

[Careyy]

Originally Posted by JugglingReferee

So then in the US, the LS actually changes on a 4th-down incomplete pass?

The neutral zone stays the same, A's leading edge of the ball is B's trailing edge and vice versa.

Given only the leading edge of the ball matters for a TD, it makes sense.

Crews I've worked on make the switch with the chains. It is called football and not inch ball, but this one is easy to get right.

[JugglingReferee]

Originally Posted by Careyy

The neutral zone stays the same, A's leading edge of the ball is B's trailing edge and vice versa.

Given only the leading edge of the ball matters for a TD, it makes sense.

Crews I've worked on make the switch with the chains. It is called football and not inch ball, but this one is easy to get right.

You forgot first downs.

I realize that I'm Canadian, and didn't grow up with the American game, but it doesn't make sense.

Football is in fact a game of inches. Two recent professional cases in point: Tyree's catch - an inch more and he doesn't catch that ball, and NE completes a season that could never be topped. There was a team a few years ago that was stopped about 18 inches short of the goalline for a Superbowl win.

I think football has two fundamentals: forward progress and field position. Team A earned field position to the 40 yard line going in, therefore B should start there, not gaining a free 11½ inches of field position, just because it's "easier" to move the chains a few inches, or to keep the same neutral zone.

[Welpe]

I think it is easier to flip the ball around than to relocate the chains. In my warped little mind, it makes more sense to move the chains. This way, the ball's physical location on the field never changes.

[Robert Goodman]

Originally Posted by JugglingReferee

I think football has two fundamentals: forward progress and field position. Team A earned field position to the 40 yard line going in, therefore B should start there, not gaining a free 11½ inches of field position, just because it's "easier" to move the chains a few inches, or to keep the same neutral zone.

But the ball is not a point, it takes up space. In determining whether the ball is in goal, any part of the ball counts, but in determining whether a goal is scored, the entire ball must be seen to pass thru the plane of the goal (and not return in NCAA or NFL). The ball is spotted for scrimmage in such a way as to establish a neutral zone. So why should "forward progress" effectively shrink the ball to a point?

The only tricky thing in all this is what happens on a 4th down incomplete pass where the previous spot had been less than the ball's length from the goal line, which it can be if on 3rd down the ball was being carried long axis sideways and just made it out of the end zone. (Can't happen in Canadian football, notwithstanding the 4th down, because they don't scrimmage with any part of the ball less than 1 yd. from the goal line.) Where do you spot the ball for the other team's 1st down? Automatic TD? I asked Brice Durbin at Fed about this in 1980, and he said that's why they instruct their officials when a team just escapes a safety like that, to rotate the ball for the spot so that its back end is out of the end zone. A technically illegal mechanic to avoid a situation not covered by the rules.

However, I have seen in the NFL when a safety was narrowly avoided, the ball's being rotated for the spot in such a way as to put its back end in the end zone. Presumably a half-the-distance penalty in that case would move the front point of the ball half the distance; otherwise it'd be the back end of the ball.

Robert

[Careyy]

I think there are two potential perspectives:

1) The ball itself establishes the neutral zone and after 4th down and an inc pass, that neutral zone is unchanged. B (now A) has gained nothing in terms of the neutral zone. This also avoids the safety in the case where rotation around the leading point of the ball would cause the length of the ball would intersect the goal line. Plus in effect the ball was 49.9 yards from the goalline for B, the rotation has move it to 50, B loses yardage.

2) If the leading edge it what "A" has gained, then "B" would gain the ball length, unless the ball is rotated arounfd that leading edge. The issue in this case would be the ball close to the goal line and associated safety.

So if we look at it from the perspective of the established neutral zone being what "A" has gained vs the leading edge of the ball, we go with #1.

I look at is as neutral zone establishment, and see the logic in avoiding the safety. I don't know Canadian rules, so if you do start from no closer than the 1, then the ball rotation safety could be avoided, and using the leading edge and rotation works, without that start from the one it wouldn't.

So if we rotate B can be seen to lose the ball length vs your argument that they gain without rotation.

As I see it the ball has a length and there are in effect two lines of scrimmage, one for A and one for B, replacing the ball back in the same position keeps both of these lines the same, rotation moves them.

[Robert Goodman]

Originally Posted by Careyy

I think there are two potential perspectives:

1) The ball itself establishes the neutral zone and after 4th down and an inc pass, that neutral zone is unchanged. B (now A) has gained nothing in terms of the neutral zone. This also avoids the safety in the case where rotation around the leading point of the ball would cause the length of the ball would intersect the goal line.

That last case is not the problem. Team A's line can be in their end zone, and as I've written I've seen the ball spotted like that in the NFL. No safety is awarded on the ball's entering the end zone while dead.

The problem is the apparent touchdown when a team with the ball so spotted on 4th down throws an incomplete pass. You can scrimmage with A's line in their end zone, but not B's.

2) If the leading edge it what "A" has gained, then "B" would gain the ball length, unless the ball is rotated arounfd that leading edge. The issue in this case would be the ball close to the goal line and associated safety.

Also not a problem; see above.

Robert

[Mike L]

The linemen and where they can be set to be considered "on the line" may be in the end zone, but the line of scrimmage for either A or B can never be in an endzone.

[Robert Goodman]

Originally Posted by Mike L

The linemen and where they can be set to be considered "on the line" may be in the end zone, but the line of scrimmage for either A or B can never be in an endzone.

Why not, if the back of the ball is there? 1D: A1's run ends with the ball being held with its long axis parallel to the yard lines, and the entire ball just barely out of the end zone. When you ready it for play for 2D, you put its nose at the foremost point when the runner's progress was stopped, resulting in its tail's being behind the goal line. Unless you're following Brice Durbin's instruction to always (unless it's a safety, of course) make the spot have enough room to put the ball entirely outside the end zone, no matter how it was positioned when it became dead.

Robert

[Mike L]

You have to move the dead ball spot in that situation, otherwise by rule you have now caused a dead ball to be in someones endzone. And a dead ball in an endzone is either a touchdown, a safety, or a touchback. See ruling 5.3.4 sit A in the casebook.

[Jim D]

Originally Posted by Robert Goodman

That last case is not the problem. Team A's line can be in their end zone, and as I've written I've seen the ball spotted like that in the NFL. No safety is awarded on the ball's entering the end zone while dead.


Robert

That is NOT the rule or the practice in the NFL. The ball remains in the same spot and the chains are moved. Now in this situation by the goal line, they would always be moved. In the middle of the field sometimes the crew gets lazy and they just move the ball, but moving the ball is not the rule or the approved practice.

[Robert Goodman]

Originally Posted by Jim D

That is NOT the rule or the practice in the NFL. The ball remains in the same spot and the chains are moved. Now in this situation by the goal line, they would always be moved. In the middle of the field sometimes the crew gets lazy and they just move the ball, but moving the ball is not the rule or the approved practice.

I think you quoted & replied to the wrong post.