A-11 hits on rivals.com

[JugglingReferee]

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

Where have you read the NFHS said it was legal? All I've read is where a COACH SAID the NFHS said it was legal.

I can tell you one thing. It's not legal in North Carolina.

I have a great LD plan, so I have half a mind to phone the NFHS myself.

If the NFHA does happen to tell me that it is legal, why is it illegal in NC? Is this the state adoption thing again?

[HLin NC]

its illegal and that's good enough for me.

According to what he has relayed from NFHS, its an attempt to deceive thus unsportsmanlike.

[JugglingReferee]

Originally Posted by HLin NC

its illegal and that's good enough for me.

According to what he has relayed from NFHS, its an attempt to deceive thus unsportsmanlike.

Attempting the deceive != unsportsmanlike.

In NFHS, is the punter faking that the snap went over his head illegal? That is a deceptive act.

In NFHS, is a fake snap count illegal? That is a deceptive act.

In NFHS, is yelling fumble when there is no fumble illegal? That is a deceptive act.

Just trying to determine why it's illegal on deception. Just because officials don't like it doesn't mean that it's illegal.

[ajmc]

I think the NFHS has spoken on this issue, but you just have to look for it. In the 2007 Case Book, Situation B under "Unfiar Acts (9.9.3), which relates to the "Where's the Tee" nonsense contains the following observation,
"Football has been and always will be a game of deception and trickery involving multiple shifts, unusual formations and creative plays."

[HLin NC]

my interpretations don't matter anymore, whether its at my real job or not.

A11 exploits the Fed's numbering exemption, although I think in reality, if I could get a a good look at someone running it, I think I could find that an exempted number took an initial position in the interior line, thus rendering him ineligible.

My opinion- the Fed doesn't like it but hasn't had the time to study the rule change necessary so in order to prevent an explosion of this they've decided to rule it as unsportsmanlike until they can tweak the rule.

[JugglingReferee]

Originally Posted by HLin NC

my interpretations don't matter anymore, whether its at my real job or not.

A11 exploits the Fed's numbering exemption, although I think in reality, if I could get a good look at someone running it, I think I could find that an exempted number took an initial position in the interior line, thus rendering him ineligible.

My opinion- the Fed doesn't like it but hasn't had the time to study the rule change necessary so in order to prevent an explosion of this they've decided to rule it as unsportsmanlike until they can tweak the rule.

So if your boss tells you to do something that you know is wrong, are you going to follow through? I think any good employee will know when to question something, and when not to.

[Sonofanump]

All NFHS needs to do is add the NCAA language "obvious kicking" and it would be illegal.

[Theisey]

Originally Posted by HLin NC

....

My opinion- the Fed doesn't like it but hasn't had the time to study the rule change necessary so in order to prevent an explosion of this they've decided to rule it as unsportsmanlike until they can tweak the rule.

.. and we value your opinion as opinions of others when it comes to discussing items like this. Yes, you do have to follow what you state association say, right or wrong.

The NFHS has had plenty of time to discuss and make a formal rule book ruling. If any one was following Coach Bryons postings in a very lengthy forum in the NFHS FB board, Coach B. took his teams novel formation to their highest levels in the CA high school sports administration and to the NF prior to using this formation last season.
In all responses, the play was declared legal because of the definitions already in the book.

They (the NF) should have done something about this formation in February or whenever they meet. Now is not the time to have a change of heart on something that doesn't involve player safety.

I for one, do happen to agree it should not be permitted unless it is an obvious kicking situation, but then it's only an opinion, but not really a strong feeling against the formation.

I've been told that our state interpretor as said it was OK, not sure why he had to get involved in the first place, but it probably was the result of a few teams (one in my area) that have expressed interest in using it. I sure hope it's not in one of my games, even though I do have that particular team on my schedule.

[JugglingReferee]

Originally Posted by Theisey

.. and we value your opinion as opinions of others when it comes to discussing items like this. Yes, you do have to follow what you state association say, right or wrong.

The NFHS has had plenty of time to discuss and make a formal rule book ruling. If any one was following Coach Bryons postings in a very lengthy forum in the NFHS FB board, Coach B. took his teams novel formation to their highest levels in the CA high school sports administration and to the NF prior to using this formation last season.
In all responses, the play was declared legal because of the definitions already in the book.

They (the NF) should have done something about this formation in February or whenever they meet. Now is not the time to have a change of heart on something that doesn't involve player safety.

I for one, do happen to agree it should not be permitted unless it is an obvious kicking situation, but then it's only an opinion, but not really a strong feeling against the formation.

I've been told that our state interpretor as said it was OK, not sure why he had to get involved in the first place, but it probably was the result of a few teams (one in my area) that have expressed interest in using it. I sure hope it's not in one of my games, even though I do have that particular team on my schedule.

Exactly!

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by JugglingReferee

I do have the 2005 NFHS books, and the 2008 books are on their way soon. I believe that a communication from the NFHS is required if something by definition is legal. A team surely can punt on any down other than 4th (can't they?), and teams are also permitted to change their minds based on broken down defenses.

They aren't changing their minds and they aren't kicking the ball. They've created an offense designed around an exception that was created for kicking the ball only. It's an EXCEPTION to the rules for a specific purpose.

Originally Posted by Theisey

If any one was following Coach Bryons postings in a very lengthy forum in the NFHS FB board, Coach B. took his teams novel formation to their highest levels in the CA high school sports administration and to the NF prior to using this formation last season.

Yes Tom, that's what HE said.

Isn't there anyone here from Pennsylvania who can contact Brad Cashman and get us some first hand information on the NFHS Rules Committee's thoughts?

Originally Posted by Sonofanump

All NFHS needs to do is add the NCAA language "obvious kicking" and it would be illegal.

Yes, we're all aware of that. But they haven't done it.

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by JugglingReferee

Attempting the deceive != unsportsmanlike.

In NFHS, is the punter faking that the snap went over his head illegal? That is a deceptive act.

In NFHS, is a fake snap count illegal? That is a deceptive act.

In NFHS, is yelling fumble when there is no fumble illegal? That is a deceptive act.

Just trying to determine why it's illegal on deception. Just because officials don't like it doesn't mean that it's illegal.

Is hiding the ball under your jersey illegal? That is a deceptive act.

BTW, Georgia is also taking the same stand as North Carolina.


Is the "wrong tee" play illegal? That is a deceptive act.


Is the "wrong ball" play illegal? That is a deceptive act.


Is running a player off the sideline illegal? That is a deceptive act.

Read the book. Deception will always be a part of football. But deception that gives a team an unfair advantage not intended by the rules is illegal.


Stick to the Canadien stuff, eh?

[JugglingReferee]

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

Is hiding the ball under your jersey illegal? That is a deceptive act.

BTW, Georgia is also taking the same stand as North Carolina.


Is the "wrong tee" play illegal? That is a deceptive act. Yes


Is the "wrong ball" play illegal? That is a deceptive act. Yes


Is running a player off the sideline illegal? That is a deceptive act. I think most codes have a foul for running back in play; but running off the sideline may not be illegal.

Read the book. Deception will always be a part of football. But deception that gives a team an unfair advantage not intended by the rules is illegal.

Stick to the Canadien stuff, eh?

I do have the 2005 NFHS books, and the 2008 books are on their way soon. I believe that a communication from the NFHS is required if something by definition is legal. A team surely can punt on any down other than 4th (can't they?), and teams are also permitted to change their minds based on broken down defenses.

I'll admit that I took the coach's word that the NFHS said it was legal.

PS: Canadian has a 3rd "a", not an "e". Si parlant français, vous seriez correct.