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-   -   Foul where distance gained prior to foul (https://forum.officiating.com/football/46389-foul-where-distance-gained-prior-foul.html)

wwcfoa43 Wed Jul 16, 2008 08:31am

Foul where distance gained prior to foul
 
Excuse the perhaps simple question but I am new to the U.S. rules. Under NFL rules does the penalty for a foul get included before or after the determination for first down. (In Canada it is after if the distance is gained before the foul.)

Situation (NFL rules):

Team A 3rd and 10 at the A 20 yard line. Players A42 rushes the ball. Player A10 holds at the A 35 yard line and the ball goes dead at the A 40.

Is the result 3rd and 5 at the A 25 or is it 1st and 10 at the A 25?

Thanks.

ljdave Wed Jul 16, 2008 09:03am

3rd and 5.

Jim D Wed Jul 16, 2008 09:04am

It's after the foul is considered. In your example, the runner may not have gotten the first down without the hold. Go back to the previous spot (NFL rules) and penalize from there and repeat 3rd down. It will be 3rd & 20 from the A's 10.

wwcfoa43 Wed Jul 16, 2008 09:09am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim D
It's after the foul is considered. In your example, the runner may not have gotten the first down without the hold. Go back to the previous spot (NFL rules) and penalize from there and repeat 3rd down. It will be 3rd & 20 from the A's 10.

It is my understanding that enforcement for offensive fouls not behind the LOS was from the spot of the foul, not the previous spot. Can someone clarify?

Jim D Wed Jul 16, 2008 09:16am

You're right. I was thinking of a foul behind the line.

ajmc Wed Jul 16, 2008 09:18am

It may be tedious, but often the correct answer to the question being asked depends ENTIRELY on which rules code you are questioning. There are major, and sometimes basic, differences between the collegiate (NCAA) and High School (NFHS) rules codes, so it's impossible to provide a correct answer without choosing a specific code.

Ed Hickland Wed Jul 16, 2008 01:02pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by wwcfoa43
Excuse the perhaps simple question but I am new to the U.S. rules. Under NFL rules does the penalty for a foul get included before or after the determination for first down. (In Canada it is after if the distance is gained before the foul.)

Situation (NFL rules):

Team A 3rd and 10 at the A 20 yard line. Players A42 rushes the ball. Player A10 holds at the A 35 yard line and the ball goes dead at the A 40.

Is the result 3rd and 5 at the A 25 or is it 1st and 10 at the A 25?

Thanks.

NFHS - All-but-one; NCAA - Three-but-one. The spot of the foul is A's 35. A42 reached A's 40 where it would have been a first down. By rule, you must consider the action during the live ball as the hold is a live ball foul. Consider, A42 reached the 40 with the assistance of the hold at the 35. Result after penalty enforcement 3rd and 5.

ajmc Wed Jul 16, 2008 02:05pm

To try and explain this a different way; A runner is entitled to any and all yardage he gains without fouling. Once he fouls, however, any yardage he gains after fouling is considered tainted. When the opponent accepts the foul, the runner suffers the penalty measured from where he fouled, rather than where he may have wound up, because that additional yardage is considered tainted.

There will be times that the opponent, for any number of reasons, would rather accept the results of the play, including the tainted yardage, and will choose to decline the penalty, in which case even the tainted yardage gain stands.

BktBallRef Wed Jul 16, 2008 05:06pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by ajmc
It may be tedious, but often the correct answer to the question being asked depends ENTIRELY on which rules code you are questioning. There are major, and sometimes basic, differences between the collegiate (NCAA) and High School (NFHS) rules codes, so it's impossible to provide a correct answer without choosing a specific code.

Ah, he wrote "Situation (NFL rules):".

JugglingReferee Wed Jul 16, 2008 05:57pm

Canadian Ruling
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by wwcfoa43
Team A 3rd and 10 at the A 20 yard line. Players A42 rushes the ball. Player A10 holds at the A 35 yard line and the ball goes dead at the A 40.

CANADIAN RULING:

In the GWN, we need to know where the ball was held when the hold occurred. If before the LTG, back 10 from PLS, DR. If after the LTG, back 10 from the PBH, 1D/10.

:D

swkansasref33 Thu Jul 31, 2008 03:03pm

just another reason as to why football rules are so much more complicated than baseball or basketball, and why i hate discussing football rules not in person lol

bniu Fri Feb 18, 2011 06:12pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by ljdave (Post 523027)
3rd and 5.

edit: sorry, didn't realize the thread date, mods please delete this post...

Texas Aggie Sat Feb 19, 2011 01:56am

Quote:

Team A 3rd and 10 at the A 20 yard line. Players A42 rushes the ball. Player A10 holds at the A 35 yard line and the ball goes dead at the A 40.
NCAA: This is a running play where the basic spot is the end of the run. The foul is behind the basic spot, so its a spot foul. Mark the ball off 10 yards to the A 25 and replay the down -- 3rd and 5.

NCAA basic spots depend on what type of play it is and can be confusing when you get into change of possession plays. Also, there are some exceptions when the foul is behind the neutral zone, depending on the foul.

Can anyone give me an example of a play where we need a basic spot analysis rather than the enforcement spot being listed with the foul? To me, the basic spot stuff is anything but basic and should be eliminated with all penalties giving their enforcement spots in the rule.

Robert Goodman Sat Feb 19, 2011 01:00pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Texas Aggie (Post 731843)
NCAA: This is a running play where the basic spot is the end of the run. The foul is behind the basic spot, so its a spot foul. Mark the ball off 10 yards to the A 25 and replay the down -- 3rd and 5.

NCAA basic spots depend on what type of play it is and can be confusing when you get into change of possession plays. Also, there are some exceptions when the foul is behind the neutral zone, depending on the foul.

Can anyone give me an example of a play where we need a basic spot analysis rather than the enforcement spot being listed with the foul? To me, the basic spot stuff is anything but basic and should be eliminated with all penalties giving their enforcement spots in the rule.

I gather what you mean is that an unnecessary mental step and verbiage have been introduced into the penalty enforcement procedure. Do I have you right?

Texas Aggie Sun Feb 20, 2011 05:43pm

No one has given me a rationale for why we have a basic spot where the basic spot comes up when a penalty doesn't give a specific enforcement spot. Why not just have all fouls specify. You have many spots -- spot of the foul, end of the run, previous spot, succeeding spot, etc. On holding, the specified enforcement spot could be, "spot of the foul, unless the end of the related run or end of the pass is behind the spot, then end of the run/pass."


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