Pass play

[Welpe]

Originally Posted by Reffing Rev.

I can't find this in my books...but a lot of mechanics aren't in the books, so can someone...anyone explain why bag the spot he goes out, that is not a spot you will ever need for any reason, its kind of like bagging a muffed snap or a fumble behind the line.

I don't know as we don't use it here. Our association's mechanic is to flag where the player comes back in.

Great discussion folks, thanks for the feedback.

[Jim D]

I agree that there is no reason at all to bean bag the spot where he goes out of bounds - that spot means nothing and we have no need to go back to it or refer to it. It's the coming back in that is the foul and that should properly marked with a flag.

[ajmc]

As it was explained, long ago, the purpose of the beanbag is to verify "that" (as well as where) the player was observed going OOB (on his own) which supports the penalty for a subsequent flag for illegal participation, when the flag is thrown.

It seems to follow the same logic of using a beanbag to identify an incident of "first touching" as a support to the subsequent awarding of the ball at a different location, or even team, following either a free or scrimmage kick. Of course the actual location of the first touching is more significant than where an individual went OOB, but the verification support the presence of a beandbag provides is similar and can minimize, or possibly avoid, unnecessary doubt about a penalty which is created by two separate and distinct actions occuring at different locations.

[Jim D]

Originally Posted by ajmc

As it was explained, long ago, the purpose of the beanbag is to verify "that" (as well as where) the player was observed going OOB (on his own) which supports the penalty for a subsequent flag for illegal participation, when the flag is thrown.

It seems to follow the same logic of using a beanbag to identify an incident of "first touching" as a support to the subsequent awarding of the ball at a different location, or even team, following either a free or scrimmage kick. Of course the actual location of the first touching is more significant than where an individual went OOB, but the verification support the presence of a beandbag provides is similar and can minimize, or possibly avoid, unnecessary doubt about a penalty which is created by two separate and distinct actions occuring at different locations.

I'm not sure a coach who wouldn't take my word if I say a player stepped out of bounds will believe me if I thow a bean bag and then say he stepped out of bounds. I don't have "verification" for my calls during a game - pass interference, clipping, blocking below the waist. I think this just adds confusions if some crews do it and some don't.

[ajmc]

Perhaps I should have said "Our" mechanic, rather than "The" mechanic, as sometimes we all may presume that the mechanics used in one area are universal, which often they are not.

"When in Rome", often applies to football officiating as well. If you believe that this, or any mechanic, is confusing or unnecessary and is not the practice in your area, then by all means you can choose to ignore it.

ReffingRef asked what the logic was, and I was simply answering him.

[Bob M.]

Originally Posted by ajmc

...In a passing situation it's not going to make much of a difference where the flag is thrown, because enforcement will likely be from the previous spot.

REPLY: The big issue here is if his return has a subsequent bearing on the play, and if that play that began with a passing situation but instead turns into a running play which ends beyond his point of return. Now you darn well better know where he returned since this will be the point of enforcement.

[daggo66]

Originally Posted by Bob M.

REPLY: The big issue here is if his return has a subsequent bearing on the play, and if that play that began with a passing situation but instead turns into a running play which ends beyond his point of return. Now you darn well better know where he returned since this will be the point of enforcement.

Are you talking about a play where the ball is never thrown?

[Bob M.]

Originally Posted by daggo66

Are you talking about a play where the ball is never thrown?

REPLY: Yes. I should have been more clear about that.

[daggo66]

Then I had better see a flag laying on the spot where he stepped back in or I'll be eating and drinking for free after the game!

[Bob M.]

Originally Posted by daggo66

Then I had better see a flag laying on the spot where he stepped back in or I'll be eating and drinking for free after the game!

REPLY: That was precisely my point (the position of the flag...not the free meal).

[parepat]

Originally Posted by a4caster

Couldn't you just drop the flag and confer afterwards? I know a wave-off never looks good, but what is worse: dropping an inadvertant, or have a player go 50 yards for a TD, then after signalling, running back down the sideline to throw the flag. I guess, if the placement is not critical, then anywhere on the sideline would suffice. But then everyone will think it was PI and that will get the crowd going. At least that's what I'm told; I wear ear plugs!!

I would not recommend this. What if the coach requests a conference. When he asks you about the rule, you would be cooked. This is a foul and to waive it off can create problems.

[w_sohl]

Originally Posted by parepat

I would not recommend this. What if the coach requests a conference. When he asks you about the rule, you would be cooked. This is a foul and to waive it off can create problems.

course we don't flag that. I don't think this is necessarily the best way to handle it, however I don't think it would create that much confusion. We just tell the coach that his actions had no bearing on the play and common sense tells us to pick up the flag.

[Bob M.]

Originally Posted by w_sohl

course we don't flag that. I don't think this is necessarily the best way to handle it, however I don't think it would create that much confusion. We just tell the coach that his actions had no bearing on the play and common sense tells us to pick up the flag.

REPLY: "course we don't flag that." That's the difference and why I agree with parepat. We don't flag the insignificant hold away from the point of attack. parepat's answer was to the situation where the IP was flagged and then waved off. Imagine you flagged that hold and then waved it off. You'd be in the same boat. Either determine it deserves a flag and live with it, or don't flag it. The worst thing you can do here is flag it, then determine it really didn't deserve the flag, and wave it off.

[JugglingReferee]

Originally Posted by Forksref

3rd and 15 for A at A's 25 yd line. A81 runs a sideline pattern and steps on the sideline for 3 steps, returns to the field at the 43 yd line, catches a pass and is tackled at the 47 yd line. What do we have, and how is it enforced?

CANADIAN RULING:

A81 stepping OOB is not one of the four valid reasons to touch OOB during a live play. This is illegal participation. Official should flag it.

The four valid reasons for being OOB are:

• being blocked to OOB
• trying to tackle/block an opponent, missing, and having your momentum take you OOB
• fielding a kick
• slipping on the field and touching OOB

[boboman316]

Originally Posted by Welpe

NFHS: Illegal participation on A81. Since this is a loose ball play, the basic spot is the previous spot. 3rd and 30 at the A 12.5 yard line. I think?

It would actually be 3rd and 27.5 yard's to go, if the basic spot was the 25?