Airborne catch in endzone on kicks

[Shorty]

If an airborne player jumps up in the endzone during a kicking play and catches the ball:
a) He is pushed (so-called force-out) and lands on the one yard line?
b) He is held and carried by an opponent to the one yard line?

In a) it must obviously be team Bs ball on the one yard line, 1. and 10. But in b), is it really also team Bs ball on the one yard line, or could we award a touchback? The rule only states that if a player is carried backwards, the forward progress spot is from where he would have landed had he not been carried. But this seems somewhat unfair to me, as it would certainly not be in team Bs interessest to get the ball on the one yard line.

[Bob M.]

REPLY: Which code: Federation or NCAA? In Fed, once a kick breaks the plane of B's goal line, the ball is dead.

[Shorty]

Ncaa

[ljudge]

Originally Posted by Shorty

If an airborne player jumps up in the endzone during a kicking play and catches the ball:
a) He is pushed (so-called force-out) and lands on the one yard line?
b) He is held and carried by an opponent to the one yard line?

In a) it must obviously be team Bs ball on the one yard line, 1. and 10.

Not so fast. You actually have KCI in both cases. The player must be given the unimpeded opportunity to catch the kick. So, if he's airborne and has the ball in his grasp meaning NOT muffed (both cases) any contact by A before the B player comes in contact with the ground (meaning he didn't "complete" the catch) you have KCI.

I happened to see this one on a training film put out by rulebooks.com. The TV commentators obviously were calling this call a "terrrible call" and the BJ nailed it.

[Shorty]

Hmmm, good point (it's offseason, that's my excuse for not thinking of KCI:-). But let's say it's an interception, what then?

[Robert Goodman]

Originally Posted by ljudge

The player must be given the unimpeded opportunity to catch the kick. So, if he's airborne and has the ball in his grasp meaning NOT muffed (both cases) any contact by A before the B player comes in contact with the ground (meaning he didn't "complete" the catch) you have KCI.

So you can't stop his forward progress in the air because he's not a runner yet? He has to be allowed whatever distance he gets horizontally before the first foot comes down?

If he signaled for a fair catch, is the spot where he got the ball in his grasp, or where it was when he touched the ground?

Robert

[JugglingReferee]

Originally Posted by Shorty

If an airborne player jumps up in the endzone during a kicking play and catches the ball:
a) He is pushed (so-called force-out) and lands on the one yard line?
b) He is held and carried by an opponent to the one yard line?

In a) it must obviously be team Bs ball on the one yard line, 1. and 10. But in b), is it really also team Bs ball on the one yard line, or could we award a touchback? The rule only states that if a player is carried backwards, the forward progress spot is from where he would have landed had he not been carried. But this seems somewhat unfair to me, as it would certainly not be in team Bs interessest to get the ball on the one yard line.

CANADIAN RULING:

Good question! If B goes dead in his EZ, it's B-1D/10 @ B-20. B's forward progress might be involuntarily pushed to the field of play, which means that the results is B-1D/10 @ B-1.

I'm going with B-1D/10 @ B-1.

[Bob M.]

Originally Posted by Shorty

Hmmm, good point (it's offseason, that's my excuse for not thinking of KCI:-). But let's say it's an interception, what then?

REPLY: If it's an interception, the first play will result in it being B's ball, 1-10 at B's 1. That's not only where he completed the catch, but is also the extent of his forward progress. For the second play, I would rule it a TB. NCAA rule 4-1-3p tells you that the ball is dead when an airborne pass receiver (of either team) is held and subsequently carried preventing him from returning to the ground.

[KSRef]

Fed rules: Doesn't make any difference what happens if the ball breaks the plane of the goal line before all of this other stuff happens. Ball dead, touchback. You might have a dead ball PF if the action on the receiver was flagrant.

[Forksref]

A reminder, in Fed Ball: It's where the ball is, not the player, that counts. The ball could be caught and not break the plane of the GL even though the feet of R are in the EZ. So, we may have a live ball. Let's say R decides to "down" the ball by placing his knee in the EZ. The ball would be placed where it was when this occurred, just outside the GL. If the ball had already broken the plane, the BJ blows it dead immediately and there is no need to "down" the ball.

BJ needs to be in position to make this call. Remember, the GOAL LINE is the most important line on the field! Get there!

[Theisey]

Originally Posted by Forksref

....
Let's say R decides to "down" the ball by placing his knee in the EZ. The ball would be placed where it was when this occurred, just outside the GL. ...

We all know there is this age old saying, "no cheap safetys" but this action you are describing could really be a safety. The ball has to be completely in the field of play to prevent this.
Hopfully you can sell momentum but be vigilant out there.. the result of the play you call could change in a heartbeat.

[Suudy]

Originally Posted by Theisey

We all know there is this age old saying, "no cheap safetys" but this action you are describing could really be a safety. The ball has to be completely in the field of play to prevent this.
Hopfully you can sell momentum but be vigilant out there.. the result of the play you call could change in a heartbeat.

The only way to have a cheap safety would be for the catch to be complete outside the goal, then for the player to pull the ball into the EZ when taking a knee.

[Theisey]

Think about it Suudy.. where is the ball when the player takes the knee? If you can't visualize it, hold on to a book and take a knee. I'd say that 99% of the time it's tucked in against his chest and armpit.. directly over the knee he just put to the turf in the EZ.

I've seen this on free kicks at least a half dozen times over the past 24 years. You hold the whistle because you know the ball has not broken the plain of the goal line (using todays rules) and then as what seems like an eternity in time, the panicky player goes down on his knee.

Good grief you say, what the heck to I have now? Tough call, tough sell. One side or the other is not going to like your ruling.

[Suudy]

Originally Posted by Theisey

Think about it Suudy.. where is the ball when the player takes the knee? If you can't visualize it, hold on to a book and take a knee. I'd say that 99% of the time it's tucked in against his chest and armpit.. directly over the knee he just put to the turf in the EZ.

My point is that the catch must be complete outside of the EZ. Before the catch is complete, it is still a kick, thus a TB as soon as the ball breaks the plane (in Fed at least). If the catch is completed with the ball completely out of the EZ, the runner would then have to pull the ball back into the EZ when taking a knee for a safety.

Originally Posted by Theisey

I've seen this on free kicks at least a half dozen times over the past 24 years. You hold the whistle because you know the ball has not broken the plain of the goal line (using todays rules) and then as what seems like an eternity in time, the panicky player goes down on his knee.

I hear what you are saying. By the book, it is a safety. Now, if the player catches the ball outside the EZ with his body in the EZ, and I didn't blow the whistle.... If a considerable period (more than a few heartbeats) went by before the player took a knee, I think you could have a sell for a safety.

Originally Posted by Theisey

Good grief you say, what the heck to I have now? Tough call, tough sell. One side or the other is not going to like your ruling.

I'd hope there were no coaches on the GL to see exactly where the ball was. And if the catch was that close to the GL, such that the catch occurred outside the EZ, but the player's knees were in the EZ, I would be comfortable calling it a TB as soon as the ball broke the plane.

[Forksref]

Originally Posted by Theisey

One side or the other is not going to like your ruling.

Good grief. This is nothing new!