Pause before snap - each hand?

[Robert Goodman]

Please answer this for any & all codes you're familiar with and in which it applies. Does the requirement of a clear pause after touching and optionally adjusting the ball before snapping it apply separately for each hand that touches it?

With the other requirements for snap/scrimmage met, A1 puts his right hand on the ball and his left hand on the ground near it in the neutral zone. After adjusting the ball briefly with his right hand to get the laces where he wants, A1 pauses with his right hand still on it. Then in one motion he snatches the ball with his left hand, using it alone or both hands to snap it without further pause. Legal?

Robert

[MJT]

By the book legal or not, this is not one that I would have a flag on the ground for. I see no advantage gained in any way and I would not be that picky for something so minor.

By the book, without looking in the book, I'd say technically speaking it would be a foul at any level.

[SWFLguy]

Centers/Snappers do a lot of things that technically could be a foul--move their hands, push the ball forward a bit before snapping it, etc..
99.999% of the time it is NOTHING. Keep the flag in your pocket/belt and let the game go on !

[Robert Goodman]

Thanks for the responses. I was asking from a coach's POV, not an official's. Just wanted to have 1-hand and 2-hand snaps possible without a tell.

Robert

[kfo9494]

Originally Posted by SWFLguy

Centers/Snappers do a lot of things that technically could be a foul--move their hands, push the ball forward a bit before snapping it, etc..
99.999% of the time it is NOTHING. Keep the flag in your pocket/belt and let the game go on !

I agree with the above statement. Most of the time the center does not even know that he is doing anything incorrect. We had this in a crew that I was in and during a dead ball period had a talk with the center and he never did it again. He was not even aware that he was moving the other hand.
.

[a4caster]

As far as flagging this, I would tend to defer to whether or not it caused the D to encroach. If it does, then bam. Now if it doesn't for the first few evolutions and I can "notice" it, I might make a suggestion to not make it very abrupt and jerky; don't make it look like a snap. But, if this is coached, then it gets messy because the coach will come and say, "I've been doing this all year." True, but I'm going to give both sides an even game TONIGHT!

[Robert Goodman]

Originally Posted by a4caster

As far as flagging this, I would tend to defer to whether or not it caused the D to encroach.

If that's your only criterion, then no problem because there wouldn't be time for team B to encroach. The hand would be so close to the ball to begin with that because it'd be done in one motion, there'be only a tiny fraction of a second between when the hand began to move and when the ball did. That's the whole point of my question -- no pause for that hand.

It's not as if the point of my idea is to set up a subtle kind of false start with the other hand. But that doesn't seem to be the point of the requirement to pause before snapping the ball after touching and optionally adjusting it. Rather, the point of the rule seems not to have to do with the defense's reacting spuriously or too soon, but reacting too late. The point seems to be to put the defense on notice as to when the ball is liable to be snapped. The snapper isn't allowed to start fiddling with the ball and then sneak in a snap, such that team B can't tell which motion of the ball actually puts it in play. Neither is the snapper allowed to position himself near the ball and just snatch it to snap it. But what I have is a case that's arguably either way, where one hand is used to touch and optionally adjust the ball, and then after a clear pause the hand that wasn't touching it is used to snap it. Team B is put on notice that the ball is liable to be snapped because a team A player has a hand on it and the movement of the ball has stopped.

Robert

[Jim S]

As others have said it IS illegal. As a 35 year umpire I'm going to assume that some coach was trying to find another way to gain any advantage he can (legal or illegal).; So my reaction is to not throw the flag but to go to the snapper and tell him that the technique will not be further allowed, so don't do it again.
And BTW, I would not consider the action to be an illegal motion or snap infraction. By the description it is a false start.

[Jim S]

Originally Posted by a4caster

As far as flagging this, I would tend to defer to whether or not it caused the D to encroach.

I also want to comment on this judgement. Just because a D lineman doesn't encroach doesn't mean he can't be affected by an illegal action of the offense. When you are waiting for a snap and you see that the offense has not yet gotten set LEGALLY you have a tendency to keep a bit relaxed.
By allowing the offense to consistantly violate a rule you are making the defensive player play to your set of rules vs the rulebook.

[JugglingReferee]

Originally Posted by Robert Goodman

Please answer this for any & all codes you're familiar with and in which it applies. Does the requirement of a clear pause after touching and optionally adjusting the ball before snapping it apply separately for each hand that touches it?

CANADIAN RULING:

OL must be set for a second prior to the snap. I would extend that that include the rotation of the ball, since the hand is moving. We don't allow other OL to move their hands without resetting for a second.

Originally Posted by Robert Goodman

With the other requirements for snap/scrimmage met, A1 puts his right hand on the ball and his left hand on the ground near it in the neutral zone. After adjusting the ball briefly with his right hand to get the laces where he wants, A1 pauses with his right hand still on it. Then in one motion he snatches the ball with his left hand, using it alone or both hands to snap it without further pause. Legal?

CANADIAN RULING:

If the left hand on the ball prior to the snap? If so, then yes. If not, he moved prior to the snap and there is no listed exception for the snapper to move early.

[Jim D]

Originally Posted by Robert Goodman

Please answer this for any & all codes you're familiar with and in which it applies. Does the requirement of a clear pause after touching and optionally adjusting the ball before snapping it apply separately for each hand that touches it?

With the other requirements for snap/scrimmage met, A1 puts his right hand on the ball and his left hand on the ground near it in the neutral zone. After adjusting the ball briefly with his right hand to get the laces where he wants, A1 pauses with his right hand still on it. Then in one motion he snatches the ball with his left hand, using it alone or both hands to snap it without further pause. Legal?

Robert

I would not teach my center to use this method. It is illegal and I would not want to set up a situation where I would be risking a flag on every play. Most officials will give the center some leeway however, if they think the center is doing this move to get a jump on the defense, flags will start to fly.

[Robert Goodman]

Originally Posted by Jim D

I would not teach my center to use this method. It is illegal

That's what I wanted to know, but on what basis is it illegal? Does the requirement of a clear pause apply to each hand separately? Or is it as Juggling Referee implied, illegal motion? In USAn rules, is it a false start for moving before the snap begins after placing a hand on or near the ground?

Or does the motion of the ball begin so quickly after the hand moves (the hand being close to the ball to begin with) that either nobody would see it as occurring before the snap, or if they did see it, would consider it to have complied with the spirit of the rules regarding snapping the ball? The same as you wouldn't try to see if the snapper's shoulder, elbow, or head is moving an instant before the ball?

Robert

[daggo66]

The best way to explain something like this to a coach and have them understand the answer is to ask the follwing question, "Why do you want to do this?" Therefore, why do you want your center to snap that way?

[Jim D]

Originally Posted by Robert Goodman

That's what I wanted to know, but on what basis is it illegal? Does the requirement of a clear pause apply to each hand separately? Or is it as Juggling Referee implied, illegal motion? In USAn rules, is it a false start for moving before the snap begins after placing a hand on or near the ground?

Or does the motion of the ball begin so quickly after the hand moves (the hand being close to the ball to begin with) that either nobody would see it as occurring before the snap, or if they did see it, would consider it to have complied with the spirit of the rules regarding snapping the ball? The same as you wouldn't try to see if the snapper's shoulder, elbow, or head is moving an instant before the ball?

Robert

In the National Federation (High School) rules, 7-1-3-c says that it is a snap infraction (ball remains dead, 5 yard penalty on the offense) if "Following the ready for play and after touching the ball, the snapper shall not...fail to clearly pause before the snap."

It's hard to rule on this without seeing it, but it seems that the play you envision is illegal. Some officials might let it go - maybe most would, but you run the risk of if being flagged. If it is flagged, you really have no arguement so you're taking a risk if this is what you teach.

I'm not a coach so maybe it's worth a shot, but you may have to throw it out in the middle of a game if it gets called. Will your center be able to adjust?

[Robert Goodman]

Originally Posted by Jim D

In the National Federation (High School) rules, 7-1-3-c says that it is a snap infraction (ball remains dead, 5 yard penalty on the offense) if "Following the ready for play and after touching the ball, the snapper shall not...fail to clearly pause before the snap."

So you're reading that as, "Following the ready for play and after [each instance of] touching the ball...", or, "Following the ready for play and after [the last] touching [of] the ball...." I'm not saying that's right or wrong, but it could also be read as, "Following the ready for play and after [the first] touching [of] the ball...." However, that last reading would make it legal for A1 to touch the ball, then after being called off the line for signals, to snatch-snap the ball on resuming the formation -- which I doubt is intended by Fed!

I'm not a coach so maybe it's worth a shot, but you may have to throw it out in the middle of a game if it gets called. Will your center be able to adjust?

I doubt there'd be time to teach a backup technique "in case they rule this illegal", so the result would be tipping the snap by using one technique for the thrown snap and another for the handed snap. It would, however, be possible to teach either a 2-hand or 1-hand grip for both snaps; it's just that at least for some kids, the method described would be easier to learn.

But then, at the level I'm likely to coach, having officials know the rules is never a given, so you never know what unusual techniques they might flag (or warn against pre-game) even if there's no actual justif'n in the rules! (I still haven't asked whether in Big Apple Youth Football team K can advance their own kickoff recovery, that being very unusual in American codes, but different officials allowed it in 2 different games last year.)

Robert